Detecting Invisibility

[N0Man]

I'm still a little confused about invisibility.

It appears that largely invisibility and stealth are pretty close to one another, and that both allow for the targeted to be detected by the use of an active Perception roll.

However, what if they are invisible due to a magic effect rather than stealth? There was no Stealth roll, so what does the Perception roll oppose? Typically it's the previous active stealth roll, but what about when that doesn't apply?

Most monsters have an invisibility power also have stealth, however it's not universal. Take the Aboleth Overseer for example. It has invisibility, but no stealth.

Is it still rolled against stealth, but in this case, using the Aboleth's base Dex bonus value in place of untrained stealth?

What DC do you use to spot an invisible target that doesn't use stealth?

 

[hero4hire]

I believe you make a Perception vs their lousy untrained Stealth.

 

[Lord Ernie]

As I understand it, you can't 'spot' it. It is, after all, invisible. What is possible is finding its location/square with a Perception check, which more or less means you try to hear where they are, rather than see them. If you beat their stealth check with your perception check, you'll know which square they are in, but they'll still have full concealment against you (-5 to your ranged/melee attacks).

 

[Hereticus]

As I understand it, you can't 'spot' it. It is, after all, invisible. What is possible is finding its location/square with a Perception check, which more or less means you try to hear where they are, rather than see them. If you beat their stealth check with your perception check, you'll know which square they are in, but they'll still have full concealment against you (-5 to your ranged/melee attacks).

How much would an invisible Tenser's Floating Disk add to their Stealth?

 

[N0Man]

I suppose the parts that confuses me (and seems inconsistent) are:

1) In the case of stealth, an active perception attempt is resolved by a perception check rolled against the stealth roll that was made originally. However, there is no stealth roll made to become invisible to set the difficulty.

2) A stealth check still has to be beat passive perception to even work, and invisibility rules don't seem to even mention passive perception as an option, only active perception.

3) If the effectiveness of invisibility is based on your stealth skill, then what's the point of the effect? In most situations, you could simply use your stealth skill and not bother using a magical effect.

 

[tmatk]

1. You don't need to make a stealth check to become invisible. My understanding is that being invisible is the same as total concealment. When you become invisible, you can make a stealth check. If that doesn't beat the enemies passive, they know where you are but can't see you, -5 to attack you.

2. PHB2 p222 (or errata) reads "Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception."

3. You need superior cover or total concealment to make a stealth check. Invisibility gives you that out in the open. Otherwise you have to run behind terrain or something.

 

[Hereticus]

My Wizard has used Invisibility about a dozen times on himself, and about a half dozen times on others. We use Arcana+5 vs Preception.

How much would an invisible Tenser's Floating Disk add to their Stealth?

If I am not walking and do not leave a trail or make a sound, how does that effect my Stealth?

There is no good answer as given in an core book.

And what about Stealth in Shadow Form (Warlock Utility 10)?

 

[MarkB]

If an invisible character does not attempt a Stealth check to move undetected, then opponents will see and/or hear sufficient signs of their movement to know which square they are in.

If the invisible character doesn't move after becoming invisible, things are a little muddier, but I would tend to use the same ruling for simplicity's sake: The character must dedicate a move action (even if he doesn't go anywhere) to make a Stealth check in order to become Hidden. Thereafter, that check result is opposed by opponents' passive Perception checks, and any active ones they choose to make.

 

[N0Man]

1. You don't need to make a stealth check to become invisible. My understanding is that being invisible is the same as total concealment. When you become invisible, you can make a stealth check. If that doesn't beat the enemies passive, they know where you are but can't see you, -5 to attack you.

I can go along with it acting like total concealment, but it really doesn't answer what the Perception is up against. There is nothing in invisibility that suggests it should be a roll. It's a shame, because if the effect was, "adds +10 to stealth", it might be much simpler.

You say you don't need a stealth check (which seems to be true), but then you say you *can* make a stealth check to see if you beat the passive perception? That doesn't really make much sense.

2. PHB2 p222 (or errata) reads "Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception."

That is stealth vs active perception, not invisibility. It doesn't explicitly state that invisibility function in the same way that stealth does, and it's debatable if it's implicitly stated.

3. You need superior cover or total concealment to make a stealth check. Invisibility gives you that out in the open. Otherwise you have to run behind terrain or something.

I agree that the effect occurs without the use of cover or conceament, however if it functions like stealth (as you imply in your #2 answer), then like stealth, you can't continue to stand out in the open and still continue to be invisible. However, with actual invisibility, would you still have this limitation?

Here are more reasons that I find invisibility unclear:

1)

 

[Stalker0]

Pg 281 of the PH answers the invisibility question.

Basically when your invisibility, you should always roll a stealth check vs your enemies passive perception. If you fail, they know your around and what direction to go and find you (but they don't know distance). If you fail by 10 or more, then they know right where you are.

However, no matter how good their perception is, you are invisible. Which means you get:

1) Combat Advantage against them
2) They suffer -5 to attack rolls with melee and ranged attacks vs you.
3) They cannot take opportunity attacks against you.

So even if the enemy can charge right to your square and swing away, he would be at a -5 to hit you.