D&D 5E DEX-based spear wielding Fighter

[Greenstone.Walker]

I don't understand why you can't just make the spear a Finesse weapon and eligible for Polearm Master and call it a day.

Because then no Rogue would ever take any other weapon. If a weapon is "no class would ever use anything other than this", that's a good symptom that it is horribly overpowered.

Imagine a Rogue running towards a foe, stopping 10 feet away, stabbing them including stealth attack damage, then running away, all without ever risking any attack of opportunity. If the foe follows them, the Rogue attacks the foe from 10 feet away, possibly with steal attack damage again.

From a realism aspect (yes, I know finesse indicates a weapon that can be deftly manoeuvred to hit targets precisely. You can't do that with a thin, flexible pole from 10 feet away.

There are no versatile, two-handed or heavy weapons with finesse in the game. I believe that is deliberate on the part of the designers.

Also, to answer the original question in this thread, why do you say Nuada is a DEX fighter? From what I remember of the movie, he shows a lot of strength in his workout and fight.

 

[Rune]

Because then no Rogue would ever take any other weapon. If a weapon is "no class would ever use anything other than this", that's a good symptom that it is horribly overpowered.

Imagine a Rogue running towards a foe, stopping 10 feet away, stabbing them including stealth attack damage, then running away, all without ever risking any attack of opportunity. If the foe follows them, the Rogue attacks the foe from 10 feet away, possibly with steal attack damage again.

Not quite. The spear isn't a reach weapon and Polearm Master wouldn't make it one (the same way it doesn't make the quarterstaff a reach weapon). So, unless s/he throws the spear, the rogue still has to get within 5 feet.

There are no versatile, two-handed or heavy weapons with finesse in the game. I believe that is deliberate on the part of the designers.

This is likely true--and for very good reason in the case of heavy weapons. But the increase in damage of non-heavy two-hand weapons over a rapier is only an average of 1 per hit. True, GWF adds a little bit to this (and would work with sneak attack dice), we're still not talking about great-weapon-build levels of damage.

 

[Lord Xcapobl]

I know nothing about Nuada (never read or watched anything related to Hellboy), but Oberyn Martell died because of his hubris. He was, without a doubt, the best fighter but his pride and thirst for vengeance made him underestimate his opponent in the last moment, and that was his undoing.

I guess his WIS score was 8.

I have seen the episode. I totally agree with the fact that he was far too busy trying to get the Mountain on a guilt trip. Call it good storytelling, good scriptwriting after that. And as far as D&D is concerned, I also totally agree that Oberyn would have had Wisdom for a dump stat.

But he did die.

;-)

 

[KaimeiJay]

Maybe we’re overthinking this. I agree that characters like Oberyn, Nuada and Balsa (from Moribito, check out her fight scenes to know what I mean) are very DEX-based spear-wielders, but it seems they still use heavy thrusts and arcing swings when it comes to actually landing a blow on their opponents. My point is that I think this archetype is still using a STR weapon despite their dexterous fighting style; spinning, jumping, flipping and twirling to avoid damage and confound the enemy while attacking with powerful stabs and slashes. So I think all we’re really looking for here is simply a character using a STR weapon while pumping a lot into DEX.

 

[Ancalagon]

Perhaps the Kensai Monk template would do...

... I would note that for "dex spear fighting", the multitudes of blows a monk can deal seems to work well.

In my campaign one of the PCs is a monk (open fist) with a +1 spear. She kicks butt.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Maybe we’re overthinking this. I agree that characters like Oberyn, Nuada and Balsa (from Moribito, check out her fight scenes to know what I mean) are very DEX-based spear-wielders, but it seems they still use heavy thrusts and arcing swings when it comes to actually landing a blow on their opponents. My point is that I think this archetype is still using a STR weapon despite their dexterous fighting style; spinning, jumping, flipping and twirling to avoid damage and confound the enemy while attacking with powerful stabs and slashes. So I think all we’re really looking for here is simply a character using a STR weapon while pumping a lot into DEX.

And longbow archers use massive strength to bend their bows, and rapier fencers are hardly strangers to heavy thrusts, but 5E D&D still models archery and fencing with Dexterity alone, because the developers decided very early on (in 4E, really) that MAD is BAD. I have no doubt that under this design philosophy it would be perfectly appropriate to stat Oberyn, etc. as finesse fighters. And I have a hard time believing that a finesse spear would shatter the game balance.

 

[Ancalagon]

And longbow archers use massive strength to bend their bows, and rapier fencers are hardly strangers to heavy thrusts, but 5E D&D still models archery and fencing with Dexterity alone,

very good points. A rapier (in real life) is as heavy as a longsword.

And I have a hard time believing that a finesse spear would shatter the game balance.

It's entirely dependent on what feats are attachable to it, due to rogues and how great dex is in general.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

One approach would be for the DM add a new weapon - maybe call it a harpoon or some other spear variant. Make it a martial weapon (i.e. most rogues can't use it), add the finesse property, remove the versatile property, and state that it can be used with pole-arm Mastery if used two-handed (but no extra damage).

 

[TheCosmicKid]

very good points. A rapier (in real life) is as heavy as a longsword.

Yeah, one-handed swords tend to converge on about the same weight. And the use of any one-handed sword requires more arm strength than a two-handed sword, because, y'know, you're only using half the number of arms (and also leverage is not your friend). So if anything, the two-handers ought to be finesse weapons and the one-handers not.

It's entirely dependent on what feats are attachable to it, due to rogues and how great dex is in general.

It'd obviously be outside the standard rogue proficiencies. And even if a rogue does acquire the proficiency... so what? Is a rogue with a two-handed finesse weapon really going to do catastrophically more damage than a rogue with two short swords?

 

[77IM]

In my campaign one of the PCs is a monk (open fist) with a +1 spear. She kicks butt.

...as a bonus action! *ba-dum ching*