Dexter's alignment (possible spoilers- discussing seasons 1&2)

[Klaus]

The weird thing here, though, is that hurting a group your society doesn't consider 'people' doesn't make you evil. Shooting your enemy in a war is fine. So is terrorizing people you think are threatening your way of life. It's misguided, but it's what your society considers right.

"Society" considering the target people or not has no bearing on D&D alignment. You're Evil if you torture people, and you are evil if you torture animals.

And the person who tortures when ordered to? Evil. Even if he does Evil in the name of Good, the action is Evil and he bears the burden of it.

 

[Merlion]

Good, in the eyes of many philosophers, is a desire to aid others at the expense of oneself.

So most people aren't good. They don't want to hurt anyone if they can avoid it, but they don't put much effort into helping people, and when they do it is usually out of a sense of obligation or reciprocation. 'I help you move into your new apartment, you'll help me some day.'

A good person would look for ways to help people who don't ask him. He'd offer his money to the poor, rather than guiltily handing some over when asked. He'd volunteer to give books to underprivileged children, or offer rides to people walking in the rain, or fly to another country and risk his life to provide medical aid.

I disagree. D&D is pretty much the only thing I've ever seen use this definition of a "Good person." In real life, by the definitions used by most people, most people are good people. Because as I said, being basically a good person doesnt have to include being a crusader or spending most of your time going out of your way to help others...and also because in my experience most people will go out of their way to help others, to at least some extent.

An evil person, on the other hand, desires to harm other people, particularly if he does it alone, rather than at the urging of society. If someone gets off on torturing people, he's evil. If someone tortures because he's been told to by his superiors, he's not necessarily evil. If you spread gossip and try to get people in trouble because you like it, you're evil. If you're just bad at keeping secrets when people ask you questions, you're not.
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Its a matter of intentions and motivations. The person who is bad at keeping secrets isnt bad or evil if they arent setting out to do harm. However also eventually you hit the point of evil by indifference...even if you arent actively setting out to be malicious, if you know your causing harm and do it anyway, its much the same.

The weird thing here, though, is that hurting a group your society doesn't consider 'people' doesn't make you evil. Shooting your enemy in a war is fine. So is terrorizing people you think are threatening your way of life. It's misguided, but it's what your society considers right.

This depends on the circumstances, and again on intentions. Someone joins the army because they want to defend their country, and ends up killing others in a war that is (or that as far as they know is) to further that end is not evil. However a person still has a responsability to use their own judgement.

Really, a good bellwether would be how you'd act in a completely foreign environment, without someone to approve or force your actions, and without societal connections to any local group

With most of the important stuff it shouldnt make much difference. I'm not a big believer in subjective right and wrong when it comes to major stuff....there are some things, such as ettiquette and relationship rules and stuff that vary, but otherwise its all pretty much the same.

Dexter? I have no bleeping idea. He acts out of the bounds of society, and disposes of dangerous people, but he enjoys hurting them. He could become a cop or a detective and track down bad guys as part of society, but he doesn't, because he wouldn't be able to fulfill his desires.

To me a character like that rides the line. What really makes the difference to me is the intention. Even if they enjoy the killing, if they understand that killing the innocent is wrong and refrain from doing so, I wouldnt necessarily call them unequivically evil.

 

[Merlion]

"Society" considering the target people or not has no bearing on D&D alignment. You're Evil if you torture people, and you are evil if you torture animals.

And the person who tortures when ordered to? Evil. Even if he does Evil in the name of Good, the action is Evil and he bears the burden of it.

In D&D terms yea, probably. And often in real life. However in real life I think their are exceptions depending upon particular circumtances. And D&D should reflect real life as much as possible...the alignment system isnt done very well.

Actions can be evil to a point, but intent and motivation are, to me, still the biggest factor in many cases.

 

[Klaus]

In D&D terms yea, probably. And often in real life. However in real life I think their are exceptions depending upon particular circumtances. And D&D should reflect real life as much as possible...the alignment system isnt done very well.

Actions can be evil to a point, but intent and motivation are, to me, still the biggest factor in many cases.

Well, no one asks about alignment "IRL". If the question arises "what alignment is X", it is in D&D terms. And in D&D terms, certain actions are Good and some are Evil, and no ammount of justification will change them.

Jack Bauer tortures a terrorist's wife to get him to reveal where the Weapon of Mass Destruction is, so he can save thousands of life. Evil act. Some may think it's a necessary Evil, but it is Evil nonetheless. Jack can be a hero and still do Evil things. But he'll never be a Paladin (well, maybe in 4E ).

 

[sckeener]

He's not Good, because the only magnanimous thing he does is kill people. His life, in general, is not motivated by a desire to help others.

He does one 'good' act frequently...he buys donuts....breakfast for the kids....snacks for work. He goes out of his way for that...spending money and devoting time. Definitely 'good qualities'

He helps out Rita frequently...leaving work to help...donating a car.....etc

(the first part is tongue in check...though I would consider it a good act if my co-workers regularly bought food for me...I don't think it out weighs his other activities)

 

[grimslade]

He does one 'good' act frequently...he buys donuts....breakfast for the kids....snacks for work. He goes out of his way for that...spending money and devoting time. Definitely 'good qualities'

He helps out Rita frequently...leaving work to help...donating a car.....etc

(the first part is tongue in check...though I would consider it a good act if my co-workers regularly bought food for me...I don't think it out weighs his other activities)

The donuts are a bribe for information on dead cases to feed his habit. And with rise in obesity and heart disease in America, he is just slowly killing all his fellow workers. ;P

Stronger case for what he gives to Rita and the kids though. He is the most 'normal' with Rita and the kids. He actually 'feels' with them. He has empathy with the son not knowing about his father.

 

[Felon]

I think he is motivated by cruelty. He doesn't just euthanize his victims; it is a prolonged and torturous activity. There is a pleasure in the hunt and in the 'taking out the trash'. The real mitigating factor is that, so far, Dexter is never wrong. He always kills the guilty. It makes him a much more sympathetic character.
In Season 1, (sorry no season 2 until Netflix) he is intrigued by the Ice Truck Killer, his little friend. He is appreciative of ITK's methodology and ITK's tweaking of the police. I think this leans him towards evil. Likeable evil, but evil none the less. Think of it this way. IF Dex cleaned up Miami and there were no more murderers, would he stop killing?

"Prolonged and torturous activity"? He kills them quickly and cleanly. he hates messes.

He's always right because he makes sure he's right. He sets targets up to incriminate themselves. He catches them red-handed.

If there were no more murders in Miami, Dex would move to somewhere else where the crime rate was sky high. Miami's high crime rate is a great asset to him.

 

[Asmo]

"Prolonged and torturous activity"? He kills them quickly and cleanly. he hates messes.

You mean besides slowly cutting their faces while talking to the victims at great length?

Asmo

 

[sckeener]

The donuts are a bribe for information on dead cases to feed his habit. And with rise in obesity and heart disease in America, he is just slowly killing all his fellow workers. ;P

I knew my boss was trying to incriminate and kill me....those accursed free donuts before the meeting! I can't resist....
Calgon, take me away!

 

[Felon]

You mean besides slowly cutting their faces while talking to the victims at great length?

Asmo

He makes a little nick, like a shaving cut. The amount of time he spends talking to them is varied, but it's generally apparent (to me anyway) that he's not being sadistic but rather is trying to understand what makes people like them--and him--tick.