Did we ever resolve the vorpal weapon creator level?

'o Skoteinos

First Post
Level is *not* a prerequisite...

From http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly3.html
What is a Caster Level?

This is the level of the creator (or the casting level of the spells placed within the item, if lower than the actual level of the creator).

From the Dungeon Master's Guide:

Caster Level: The power of the item (just as a spell's caster level measures its power). The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as the range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magicor similar situation.

Note what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that you have to be the listed level to make a given item. It's not a prerequisite. You don't have to be 17th level to create a 1st-level pearl of power -- you just have to meet the prerequisites. Prerequisites, you'll notice, get their own section. It comes next. All you do with caster levels is determine the level-dependent effects of an item. Those listed in the DMG are just averages. When you determine an item randomly, or pick one out of the book for your player characters to find or to equip an NPC, that's the caster level of the item. That's all it is.

The DMG goes on:

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of the item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell, and not higher than her own caster level. For example, at 5th level, Mialee could scribe a scroll of invisibilityat caster level 3 (making it last 30 minutes), caster level 4 (40 minutes), or caster level 5 (50 minutes). For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

Note that caster level can be a variable. The DM may decide that a particular carpet of flying was created by a high-level caster who decided to put the spells in at her own level. Such a carpet could withstand attacks and dispelling with a much greater chance. Most items conform to the caster levels listed. Of the exceptions, the differences often aren't that telling, except for occasional items (say, a staff of frost) where the differences truly matter.

How about another example. Let's say you're an 8th-level wizard, and you're going to make a wand of mage armor (good choice, by the way, and your friend the monk thinks so too). What's the caster level of the finished wand? 8th? The answer is: maybe. It's actually whatever you want it to be, from level 1 to 8. You can choose to voluntarily set the caster level lower than your own to make the wand less expensive. But the duration of the mage armor spell in the wand is based on whatever level you set it at.

That means it's possible to have a caster level of a rod lower than 9, even though you have to be 9th level to use the Craft Rod feat.

What is a Prerequisite?

Again, let's first see what the DMG says:

Prerequisites: The requirements that must be met in order for a character to create the item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind.

Seems simple enough, right? This is the stuff you need to have to make the item. And let me point out again, level isn't in here (actually, on rare occasions, level is listed, such as with a potion of heroism, but if that's the case, look for it under prerequisites, not caster level).

Take a good long look at the Bold parts. I don't know if monte cook holds any value to you, but this is what he had to say about it. Caster Level is *not* a prerequisite...

And from this one can conclude that the Caster Level for a +1 Vorpal Longsword is 5th (assuming you have acces to the spell somehow).

Seems we have some different opinions on item creation, dcollins...;)

[edit] Added a the bit about prerequisites
[edit] Added edit information
 
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dcollins

Explorer
Re: Level is *not* a prerequisite...

'o Skoteinos said:
Caster Level is *not* a prerequisite...

My responses are all here: www.superdan.net/dndfaq2.html

Monte in his essay specifically ignores crucial language on DMG p. 178. The notion that "caster level is not a prerequisite" is a straw argument; see the 1st "Frequently Asked Question" at the bottom of this linked page.
 
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Drew

Explorer
:):):):) :):):):)
Just testing the language filter. Heh, heh.

So, dcollins, do you mind if I put a link to your site on Monte Cook's website? Anyone willing to E-mail Skip? I suppose I'll have to do it myself.
 
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Dundragon

First Post
Not to be pedantic or anything, but Monte Cook wrote the DMG. IMC I'd go with the later of the two (the stuff posted on his website, not the stuff printed in the DMG)
 

Zhure

First Post
This question has come up a lot, and I realize the language of the DMG is very clear that Prequisites are different from Caster Level.

"For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of the item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)."

This is clear. While Monte has said that was never the intent, it surely seems the rules came out that way.

The next question is: Is it a good rule?

Based on my quick persual, most of the miscellaneous items and weaponry, most of it makes sense. Vorpal takes an 18th level caster by strict reading of the rules. Luck Blade takes a 20th level caster.

The only ones that don't make sense on my initial pass through the list are Prayer Beads, Sovereign Glue, Universal Solvent, which are all too high, and Horn of Blasting which seems way too low. Then again, I think Horn of Blasting is very very very broken and needs a fix.

Greg

[edit]

I forgot to mention that making "Caster Level" a prerequisite opens a can of illogical worms:

"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary, such as if one character knows some of the spells necessary to create an item and another character knows the rest."

Means a 7th level Wizard and a 20th level Commoner can group together to manufacture Vestments of Faith.

Greg
 
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hong

WotC's bitch
Re: Re: Level is *not* a prerequisite...

dcollins said:

Monte in his essay specifically ignores crucial language on DMG p. 178.

Monte is Allowed to do that, as is any given DM. Monte's words may tend to hold more weight than any one given DM, though.
 

dcollins

Explorer
Drew said:
So, dcollins, do you mind if I put a link to your site on Monte Cook's website? Anyone willing to E-mail Skip? I suppose I'll have to do it myself.

Feel free to link or quote my website on Monte's message boards. Like I say in my article, I've had a number of personal email exchanges with Monte on the issue, but couldn't get a clear resolution to the pricing issue (as per the end of my "Recommendations" section). It leads me to believe that Monte hasn't really had the time to think the issue through. He's certainly a very busy and productive guy.
 

dcollins

Explorer
Zhure said:
I forgot to mention that making "Caster Level" a prerequisite opens a can of illogical worms... Means a 7th level Wizard and a 20th level Commoner can group together to manufacture Vestments of Faith.

I don't think that anybody's suggesting that it should be treated that way. "Caster Level" is not a "prerequisite"... but it is (separately) a "minimum on the creator's level" (DMG p. 178). Therefore the problem you identify doesn't take place (the Com20 not supplying any of the listed "prerequisites").
 

Marshall

First Post
Zhure said:
"For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of the item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)."

This is clear.
Greg

On the contrary, after reading all the other evidence it says just about nothing.

For rings, arms and armor, rods, and wi, it states that the 'creator' cannot create an item with a higher CL than his own. A 6th level CLR cant create a +2 sword with a CL of 10, but he could create a +2 Flaming Mace and instill a CL of 5.

Further evidence of the intent for CL to not be a requisite is the complete lack of any 'rules' or 'guidelines' for determining CL of non-standard MI.

For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.

This line seems to be the sticking point. The problem is, What is the CL for an Amulet of Light Healing?
Without any guidance on determining CL of unpublished MI, I have to go with Monte's take that its not supposed to be a requirement.
 

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