Dimension Door VS Schism

[Jimlock]

Hello everyone!

I was discussing about the possible combination of the two powers (Schism + Dimension Door, Psionic) with a friend, and it seems we have a disagreement.

So here is my question:

Can a Psionic character take another action in the same round and AFTER he has manifested Dimension Door, while under the effects of the Schism Power?

For your convenience here are the two powers (SRD):

schism
telepathy [mind-affecting]
level: Telepath 4
display: Auditory and visual
manifesting time: 1 standard action
range: Personal
target: You
duration: 1 round/level (d)
power points: 7
your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body.Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind.

Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested.

Both your minds communicate with each other telepathically. If you are subject to a compulsion or charm effect while you are of two minds, make a second saving throw if you fail the first. If you fail both, then the schism ends and you are affected normally by the power. If you fail just one, the schism ends immediately, but you are not subject to the compulsion or charm.

Your second mind does not gain any advantages if you are subject to a haste effect, although you gain the overall standard benefits.

dimension door
conjuration (teleportation)
level: Brd 4, sor/wiz 4, travel 4
components: V
casting time: 1 standard action
range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
duration: Instantaneous
saving throw: None and will negates (object)
spell resistance: No and yes (object)
you instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A large creature counts as two medium creatures, a huge creature counts as two large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

 

[Drowbane]

If one mind D-Doors, the other is still free to act. Schism is an awesome power, one of the truely unique to psionics powers in the game.

 

[Sekhmet]

I'd say that Dimension Door takes precedence over Schism. Other spells do not have the clause "no other actions until your next turn." Schism doesn't grant you an additional turn, just an additional action.
Now, you could take an action and then use your Schism action to manifest Dimension Door, but that is entirely a different beast.

 

[Drowbane]

"Each part functions in complete autonomy". D-Door would prevent either side of the mind from continuing to act in a given turn, not both sides.

Psion
Standard: D-Door
Move: nada, used D-Door and is done.
Schism
Standard: anything psionic, including another D-Door.

 

[Jimlock]

"Each part functions in complete autonomy". D-Door would prevent either side of the mind from continuing to act in a given turn, not both sides.

And where does it say that D-Door prevents the mind from continuing to act in given turn?

...Because all I read is "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn."

This has nothing to do with working minds etc... its just the simple fact the the spell/power does not allow ANY action, no matter how you get it.


Take a look at the following example:

Say that I'm a Wizard (or a Psion, and WITHOUT Schism) and that I have just cast/manifested D-Door in the midst of battle. This means that I can take no actions until my next turn.
...but a handful of things can happen until my next turn... and unlucky me... they do!
So after I've completed my spell/power, its the bad guys' turn:

1-A warrior attacks me with his bastard sword! -> I defend my self effectively (i'm not Flat-footed). My AC works just fine. I'm not paralyzed, or helpless or anything like that.
[My mind works just fine...and in relation to my body as well.]

2-An evil wizard casts Phantasmal Killer on me... and I roll my will save normally in order for my "perfectly working mind" to recognize the image as unreal.

3-Another wizard casts fireball... And I roll my reflex save just the same... in order for my body to evade the deadly flames [Another good example of mind-body coordination]

So what we gather from the above examples, is that my mind as well as my body function just fine, even if I'm not allowed to take another action until my next turn.

The reason I'm not allowed to take some other action.... is because the spell/power simply works that way. It prevents ANY action after it, No matter where it comes from... Be that from Schism, from 3.0 Haste, from Celerity (the entire family), Anticipatory Strike or whatever have you...

 

[Azoriel]

Despite the flavor text about a schismed mind's autonomy, it's not a completely separate entity - rather, it's merely an extension of the mind that spawned it. It doesn't get it's own psionic focus and doesn't get it's own swift/immediate actions each round. All it gives you is an extra standard action and a 2nd save vs. certain effects. Beyond that, you get nothing else - it counts as part of you for all other purposes (whether it be a redospi you manifest on yourself, a targeted dispel, or travel via dimension door).

Even if this weren't the case, you'd still be hosed, because the schismed mind is also using the dimension door effect, so therefore also can't take actions. The only way this doesn't happen is if you argue that you left your completely autonomous schismed mind behind when you dimension doored. In which case, you'd reach your destination short half a head, with your brains leaking out from both parts. And, given that you're probably dead or dying at that point, you still won't get to take any more actions that round.

 

[Drowbane]

After using this spell, *you* can’t take any other actions until your next turn. D-Door only prevents the caster from acting further in the round, it says nothing about doing that to other travellers as well. My arguement is that your Schism is merely another traveller, albeit similiar to "you", who isn't *you* (if that made any damn sense at all).

As to Celerity, D-Door was written well before the Swift/Immediate add ons. By RAW you are correct, however RAI must be determined by the DM. I would say a Celerity would trump D-Door's "you're done".

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=23396]Drowbane[/MENTION] What makes it trump Dimension Door? Celerity grants an additional standard action, Dimension Door ends all actions for the round. It doesn't say "ends all actions unless you have additional actions left".
The same goes for Schism. Schism is still you. If you die, the Schism effect doesn't animate your body until the duration ends. If successfully charmed, the Schism ends. Schism does not create an entirely new creature (like Simulacrum or Clone might).

Dimension Door ends your turn, and you cannot act until your next turn. Schism allows you an additional action on your turn, but it does not trump Dimension Door's wording.

 

[Drowbane]

I agree that for whatever reason, D-Door was meant to end your turn. Schism works if your allies can act if they travel with you through a D-Door, "its" standard is still viable ("your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body"). As to Celerity, or any other Swift / Immediate action, D-Door does not and can not account for those types of new rules. There for its up to DM interpretation based on all the factors, not just the spell that predates the other components.

I'm not arguing for RAW, just how its done at my table. No system is complete without DMs to interpret things

I haven't said this on ENW in years, but here goes "RAW is often stupid, think for yourself Berk!"

 

[Jimlock]

I haven't said this on ENW in years, but here goes "RAW is often stupid, think for yourself Berk!"

One might get insulted... but hey... I assume we are not here to hurt each other's feelings.... so

I'm not arguing for RAW, just how its done at my table. No system is complete without DMs to interpret things

I don't think you 'll find anyone to argue against that. Still, whenever a rules-question is asked in ENW, it is first and formostly asked on a RAW basis. So if you are not arguing based on RAW...well you should have said so from the start

Now, since we agree that by RAW D-Door cancels all actions after it, no mater what, lets see what happens based on RAI... since you evidently want to talk based on RAI.

Let's see... : On your second post you assumed that D-Door cancels all actions after it because "D-Door prevents the mind from continuing to act in a given turn" As I said before, not only this is not RAW, but not even RAI. There is NOTHING to permit you such an interpretation.

NEVER in the 3.x rules does "losing a turn = turns you into a vegetable", without a viable condition. I gave you three examples in my previous post that explain clearly that a D-Doored character has a perfectly working mind until the beginning of his next turn.

In our example, our Schismed character who has just D-Doored has two perfectly working minds, both before and after the D-Door. He simply cannot take actions until his next turn.

So again: Losing one's action cannot be interpreted into a nonfunctioning mind. That would be a house rule, and a house rule that is.

I'm insisting on this because not only you did not answer it but also because I believe that you are largely basing your arguments on this out-of-the-blue-assumption.

After using this spell, *you* can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

Exactly. *You*, a single entity, be that with one or a thousand minds, can't take any actions until your next turn.

D-Door only prevents the caster from acting further in the round, it says nothing about doing that to other travellers as well. My arguement is that your Schism is merely another traveller

Now that's reaching don't you think? No matter the number of your minds you are still one single entity/traveller.

Translating those two minds belonging to a single being/entity...... into two distinct travelers, is again IMO, not a viable interpretation.

The second mind is not another person. It does not prefer the color blue while your primary mind likes red. It does not have separate goals or hobbies. Your secondary mind does NOT disagree with your primary one...
The second mind is simply another tool that permits *you* to do "more stuff" in one round. And no matter how many stuff you can do in one round, D-Door takes away all of your remaining actions, mental or otherwise.

Honestly, [MENTION=23396]Drowbane[/MENTION], I think you are reading too much into the fluff.

As to Celerity, D-Door was written well before the Swift/Immediate add ons. By RAW you are correct, however RAI must be determined by the DM. I would say a Celerity would trump D-Door's "you're done".

Again, what you mention is not a case of RAW vs RAI. No matter how you interpret it, it is clear that Celerity does not trump D-Door. That would be a house rule. I'm not judging whether its a good or a bad house-rule. I'm simply saying that there is nothing to support it rules-wise. An immediate action is always an action. In any language and by any school of thought.

What you are doing is not a veritable interpretation of the rules. You are second guessing the writers' intentions based on what was published first and what followed it.
An honorable sport I admit, yet even through the writers' lenses I fail to see any intention of creating spells and powers that can trump D-Door.

I, Berk, have thought for myself.