Diplomacy always an opposed check?

[Nathan]

Hey,

I disagree with my DM on how to read the Diplomacy skill.

He says that a Diplomacy check is always due to a negotiation and thus calls for an opposed check. As he understands the system, a character using Diplomacy has always to roll against the opposed Diplomacy check of the NPC + a DC given by the table on p. 72 in the NPC + circumstance modifiers.

My understanding is that there are (at least) two uses of the Diplomacy skill. One is to change the attitude of an NPC towards the character using the Diplomacy. This is not an opposed check and the DCs given on the table mentioned apply (i.e. 40 to turn one from unfriendly to helpful).

Then there are negotiations. In these, one calls for an opposed check and the table with the flat DCs does not apply.

What is correct? I think that the ruling of my DM yields DCs much higher than intended. With his ruling, trying to turn even a person unskilled in Diplomacy from unfriendly to helpful has an average DC of 50 instead of 40 (40 + average result on d20 due to opposed roll).

Do you have some persuading arguments for one of the points of view?

Best,

Marc

P.S.: I am interested in the rules as written (and meant ), not in one of the many house rules regarding this skill.

 

[lukelightning]

Diplomacy is not an opposed check. The DM should determine the attitude of the NPC and that determines the DC, according to the diplomacy chart.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

You're right about the RAW--it's not usually an opposed check. His method, though, is a simple way of fixing a completely broken skill.

 

[Nathan]

You're right about the RAW--it's not usually an opposed check. His method, though, is a simple way of fixing a completely broken skill.

I am aware of the effect that there have been many discussions on whether this skill is broken or not - I personally don't believe so. Anyway, my question is independent of these issues. I should add, though, that my DM hasn't invented his method to fix anything, but uses his method because he thinks this is as per the RAW.

 

[Christian]

Well, it's quite possible that he thinks the standard interpretation of RAW has to be incorrect, because otherwise the skill would be broken. I.e. it's a house rule that's so much better than the more commonly used rule that it's hard, once you're used to it, to even see that it's a house rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As he understands the system, a character using Diplomacy has always to roll against the opposed Diplomacy check of the NPC + a DC given by the table on p. 72 in the NPC + circumstance modifiers.

Compare with a skill like Bluff, where there is a table of modifiers (-5, +5, etc), vs Diplomacy, where there is a table of DCs (20, 25, etc).

One alters a roll, where the other determines a DC. The NPC does not roll to determine the DC when you are influencing attitude; the DC is determined from the table based on their current attitude.

-Hyp.

 

[Felix]

As he understands the system, a character using Diplomacy has always to roll against the opposed Diplomacy check of the NPC + a DC given by the table on p. 72 in the NPC + circumstance modifiers.

DIPLOMACY (CHA)

Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.​

The two mechanics of a diplomacy check are illustrated by italics and bolding.

In the first case, the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar is referenced, and nowhere on that sidebar is a DC+Skill Check mentioned: it only provides flat DCs for the PC to achieve. The mechanic for this is simply 1d20 + Diplomacy Modifier vs DC XX. The table will render the result of the diplomacy check.

The second mechanic of this skill is an opposed roll. 1d20 + Diplomacy Modifier vs 1d20 + Diplomacy Modifier, circumstance bonuses notwithstanding. Nowhere in the opposed roll mechanic does adding a DC apply: the two rolls set the DC.

The diplomacy skill has two different functions:

Influence NPC attitude.
Negotiate, with or without arbitration.​

These functions have thier own mechanics:

Flat DC
Opposed Roll​

 

[Nathan]

Compare with a skill like Bluff, where there is a table of modifiers (-5, +5, etc), vs Diplomacy, where there is a table of DCs (20, 25, etc).

One alters a roll, where the other determines a DC. The NPC does not roll to determine the DC when you are influencing attitude; the DC is determined from the table based on their current attitude.

-Hyp.

Thanks! That's a good argument.

 

[Nathan]

Well, it's quite possible that he thinks the standard interpretation of RAW has to be incorrect, because otherwise the skill would be broken. I.e. it's a house rule that's so much better than the more commonly used rule that it's hard, once you're used to it, to even see that it's a house rule.

Do you really think the spell is broken if used as intended by the game developers (and their intentions seem to be quite firm, given that the skill hasn't been revised in any product)?

Firstly, using the skill takes at least one minute, but may even take hours (say at a party). Secondly, the skill can only work if the NPC is willing to interact with the character in a way that the character can use Diplomacy. Thirdly, many people claim that it is too easy for an even low-level character to have enough ranks in the skill so that any unfriendly attitude can automatically be pushed to friendly. I don't think this is a problem if the DM takes the first and second point into account. Furthermore, if a character chooses to specialise, why shouldn't he be good at it? (This applies to other skills as well.) And compared with other skills and my own perception of what diplomacy can move in the real world, the DCs seem to be in line. Lastly, one should keep in mind that diplomacy does not work like a charm spell. If even the attitude of an NPC turns to helpful, it doesn't mean that the NPC tells all his secrets or follows you everywhere. I think it just means the NPC is as helpful as he can be in that situation.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The skill is seen as broken because it very easy to get high ranks and too many people forget that, as you put it so nicely...
"Lastly, one should keep in mind that diplomacy does not work like a charm spell. If even the attitude of an NPC turns to helpful, it doesn't mean that the NPC tells all his secrets or follows you everywhere."

Most HR versions try to eliminate the vaguery of 'helpful' and put more power into the playes hands as to the results. Otherwize the skill is often seen as 'roll skill and *if* DM approves of the results it will work'

Careful following of the RAW and properly handled NPC attitudes can make the skill useful... but it still could use some tweaking


The Core rules have never really done social encounters as well as they do combat or traps...