Disappointment with high-level spells?

[Vanye]

This thread is ironic for me, because I was just talking about this yesterday with a co-player/DM. 8th and 9th level generally IS "more of the same", especially for druids.


Here's the 8th & 9th level druid spells that I've got from the FR books, the Spell Compendium, the PH2, and the PH:
8th Level Druid Spells
Abjuration
Repel Metal or Stone
Wall of Greater Dispel Magic
Conjuration
Bombardment #
Cocoon #
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Deadfall
Maelstrom
Phantom Wolf
Summon Nature's Ally 8
Word of Recall
Evocation
Earthquake
Red Tide
Sunburst
Whirlwind
Necromancy
Finger of Death
Transmutation
Animal Shapes
Awaken, mass
Brilliant Aura #
Control Plants
Reverse Gravity
Stormrage
Unyeilding Roots

9th Level Druid Spells
Conjuration
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Drown, Mass
Elemental Swarm
Phantom Bear
Regenerate
Shambler
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Nature's Ally 9
Summon Elemental Monolith
Tsunami
Divination
Foresight
Enchantment
Anathema
Antipathy
Sympathy
Evocation
Whirlwind, Greater
Illusion
Shadow Landscape
Necromancy
Death Ward, Mass
Transmutation
Cast in Stone #
Nature's Avatar
Perinarch, Planar
Shapechange
Transmute Rock to Lava
Undermaster


I don't have my books with me, but as I recall, Undermaster was actually pretty sweet, the Phantom animal spells were powerful, but not (IMO) worth of being 8th &9th level spells, Coccoon was pretty cool...but most of them are "more of the same".

When I get to 8th & 9th level spells, I expect to be able to start being able to do mass manipulations. As a druid, I'd expect to be able to reshape at least a square mile of land (or, sheesh, a 100sq ft per level) - create a hill, for gods sake! (mountains I'll leave for epic ) Change the course of a river. Focus the power of nature into an area of healing.
Be able to ascertain the general health of my domain merely by concentrating.

Things that last for a while. Sure, you can do some of the above at lower levels...for six seconds. Or if you're lucky, 2 minutes. Wheee....

 

[Tzarevitch]

I saw somewhat the opposite in my low-epic game--saving throw bonuses so vastly outstripped the DCs that could be produced that touch attack damaging spells became the order of the day, preferrably heavily metamagicked to cause massive damage. Barring that, things that couldn't be Evasion-ed like Horrid Wilting were fairly popular as well. There were also usually huge amounts of buffs up in every direction and Rings of Counterspelling with Disjunction in them (and/or Reactive Counterspell and Disjunctions prepared specifically to counterspell the other team's Disjunctions). And this Disjunction precaution level is even after I houseruled it to not automatically dispel all spells like the crazy version in the PH but instead to have no caster level cap and set the DC to beat at 1 + the opponents caster level (rather than 11 + )

This has been my experience too. In epic levels, if you are running up against a creature's good save, save or nothing = nothing. Rays and targeted spells that inflict damage with no save or SR become paramount because it is hard to beat the SR on some epic creatures and if you give them a save, they will usually succeed. That was the case in 3.0 and 3.5 is even more so because of the limiters that have been put on increasing save DCs.

Disjunction also is necessary because the enemy often has so many buffing spells going you can't dispel them all even with Greater Dispel unless you massively out-level your foe, and sometimes you just need to kill some of his magic items.

Tzarevitch

 

[Klaus]

Transmute Rock to #@$%#ïng LAVA!!!!

 

[Tzarevitch]

I've thought a bit more about this since I posted the initial thought, and I think IceFractal hit on a lot of the problem, at least for me.

In a perfect game--and yes, I know that any thought that begins with that statement is bound to end in disappointment --but in a perfect game, every time you gain a new spell level, you should be able to do something you could never do before.

For me, at least with this druid character, that hasn't been the case for a few spell levels now. With my 8th and 9th level spells, all I'm finding is that I can do the same stuff better, or with more dice, but I'm not gaining the ability to do anything I couldn't do before. Sure, I can summon shambling mounds, but I could already summon a lot of pretty useful critters. Sure, I can deal damage, but it's just more of the same.

Druid spells have always been like that. It is the same throughout their list. They come in a couple of flavors and that's it:
1) Moderate Healing, 2) Plant/Animal effects 3) Terrain/Weather Control 4) Elemental damage.

There are some occasional other types like the odd divination or protection spell but, they have never had as much versatility as clerics let alone sor/wiz. They are supposed to make up for it somewhat with wildshape.

Tzarevitch

 

[Rystil Arden]

This has been my experience too. In epic levels, if you are running up against a creature's good save, save or nothing = nothing. Rays and targeted spells that inflict damage with no save or SR become paramount because it is hard to beat the SR on some epic creatures and if you give them a save, they will usually succeed. That was the case in 3.0 and 3.5 is even more so because of the limiters that have been put on increasing save DCs.

Disjunction also is necessary because the enemy often has so many buffing spells going you can't dispel them all even with Greater Dispel unless you massively out-level your foe, and sometimes you just need to kill some of his magic items.

Tzarevitch

Yup. This is why every single character in the game had megabucks/feats sunk into stopping Disjunction. Disjunction is crazy-unfair, especially if you don't nerf it like I have:

"Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Level 75 Lich. I know you spent 12 years and sacrificed 1,000,000 lives casting that epic spell, but I, level 21 Wizard, automatically dispel it with Disjunction."

 

[Voadam]

Transmute Rock to Lava, Tsunami, Greater Whirlwind, and Nature's Avatar sound promising. though Whirlwind is admittedly more of the same.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Storm of Vengance is one of those spells that could really rock the house when used in the right situation, but only when used in the right situation. (The right situation being when ambushing a large enemy group outdoors from a distance. Note that the entire back 6 rounds of the spell are devoted to letting your PC group run up to be ready to bushwhack the opponents from close range once the fog lifts.)

I'd have to say its even weak for that, particularly as a 9th level spell. Given that firestorm is 2 levels lower, covers a massive area (2 10x10 cubes per level), deals a crapton more damage, and its effects occur the round its cast. If you have the drop on the enemy, its a much better choice.

Storm takes a full round to cast, doesnt do anything until the 2nd round, you have to maintain concentration, and the supposedly useful obscuring effect doesnt even begin until the 5th round in. The spell's area isnt even THAT big. 360' radius. Your average chain shirt wearing pud will be safely out before the hail starts, and definately out before the rain really kicks in, so the vision limit wont even come into play in many situations. If I'm still standing in the area by round 4 or 5, I failed my save vs. idiocy. The useless d6 acid rain damage isnt good for anything except killing a bunch of commoners or squirrels (maybe) and destroying plant life. How druidic. The spell just blows on so many levels (pun intended). If I'm a 17th level druid, a bunch of 1st level warriors arent particularly going to scare me, and even if they did, there are much more effective tools to dispatch them (and lower level to boot) that dont leave me out of casting for several rounds.

 

[Thanee]

In a perfect game--and yes, I know that any thought that begins with that statement is bound to end in disappointment --but in a perfect game, every time you gain a new spell level, you should be able to do something you could never do before.

That's probably one reason why most people prefer the middle levels.

High levels are only more complicated, but don't really add that much more to the game (well, maybe some more problems for the DM ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lanefan]

See if your DM will let you have some 1e Druid spells...Chariot of Sustarre rocks; Turn Wood (or whatever it's called) can ruin people's day; etc.

Lanefan

 

[airwalkrr]

I'm actually having trouble picking my two daily 9th-level spells, just because none of them are really jumping out and yelling "Take me!"

That is because the game designers did a good job of making them balanced. If any of them were jumping off the page, that would be a clear sign that they were too good.

But if you want a good 9th level spell, shapechange is hard to ignore. The ability to cast two spells per round (thanks to choker form) is quite nice.