Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

[Phaezen]

There you go then. You answer your own question as to how it could be done in older editions and didn't require some video game power to do it.

Notice yourself using a "taunt" ability that is a racial for Kender, but doesn't discount other races or even classes from doing something to piss off the enemy to rush him, or the enemy leader to order them all to rush him.

So the power isn't need to do it.

Explain to me why you can only swing your sword at more than one enemy in this sweeping motion once per encounter in 4th and that make sense?

Because you ran out of use of the power right? So it is ok to be "like the movie where it has to happen" as mentioned by M_R, but you can only do it once, because a fighter is so inept at being able to do something more than once.

I call that a lack of options.

DM: Sorry Tom, you can't make anymore wild swings at the enemies hoping to hit more than one at a time because you used up your encounter power.

Isn't it great to play in a movie script where the director (DM/rules) dictate (railroad) you actions and choices?

I see it more of a narative tool than a "video game power". It also works in line with my experience of fighting (JKA Kumite and Goju Ryu Iri Kumi). Some techniques are more difficult to complete and require the right distance, body positioning, balance and openings in your opponents defense to execute.

So for example, basic jabs, snap kicks and mawashigeri (roundhouse kicks) to the body would be my at will attacks, very little effect but they are easy to execute and are used to position your opponent for your more effective techniques.

For encounter techniques, more difficult you need the right balance and have to work openings in your opponents defence, you will most likely only be able to pull these off once or twice in a three minute bout. You are looking at head high mawashigeri's, reverse mawashi to the body, using strong defenses to turn your opponent and open his back, as well as small sweeps to put him off balance so you can land other techniques easier.

For Dailies, requiring perfect balance, positioning as well as working your opponent into a position where his balance and defences are not in place to counter, full sweeps and throws, are the big ones here. Unless you are very skilled you will most likely be able to execute these once a tournament (usually 4 or 5 fights).

Similarly, for martial exploits you can draw the same conclusions, your encounter powers require a certain set of circumstances that you can manoeuvre into once in a fight. Dailies, require even more skill to set up and you can usually manage to get the right circumstances once every 4 or 5 encounters.

Phaezen

 

[justanobody]

An how often was oriental fighting styles used in medieval Europe?

That is the problem, that even without the Greyhawk influences, the game is still founded on that time frame with a little bit of extra fantasy. Look at the armor and weapons.

If that is the case, then where is the monk in the PHB?

If what you describe to be a Martial power, then it should be for the monk, otherwise these things aren't martial abilities in D&D as the monk will have similar functions be be of another power source rather than require physical contact.

I really see nothing that puts this fighter into physical contact like you describe, but just annoying them to rush him.

So when the Martial monk comes out, then a power like Kumite style may fit better, but it will be some pseudo-magic type of power rather than actual physical contact.

All in all it exceeds that funny word that starts with a "v".

 

[Phaezen]

An how often was oriental fighting styles used in medieval Europe?

That is the problem, that even without the Greyhawk influences, the game is still founded on that time frame with a little bit of extra fantasy. Look at the armor and weapons.

If that is the case, then where is the monk in the PHB?

If what you describe to be a Martial power, then it should be for the monk, otherwise these things aren't martial abilities in D&D as the monk will have similar functions be be of another power source rather than require physical contact.

I really see nothing that puts this fighter into physical contact like you describe, but just annoying them to rush him.

So when the Martial monk comes out, then a power like Kumite style may fit better, but it will be some pseudo-magic type of power rather than actual physical contact.

All in all it exceeds that funny word that starts with a "v".

Nothing specifically Oriental about Martial Arts:

Martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In popular culture, the term "Martial Arts" often specifically refers to the combat systems that originated in Asian cultures. However, the term actually refers to any sort of codified combat systems, regardless of origin. Europe is home to many extensive systems of martial arts, both living traditions (e.g. Jogo do Pau and other stick and sword fencing and Savate, a French kicking style developed by sailors and street fighters) and older systems collectively referred to as Historical European martial arts that existed until modern times and are now being reconstructed by several organizations. In the Americas, Native Americans have a tradition of open-handed martial arts, which includes wrestling, and Hawaiians have historically practiced arts featuring small and large joint manipulation. A mix of origins occur in the athletic movements of Capoeira, a practice that was created in Brazil by slaves and was based on skills brought with them from Africa.

All forms of fighting have techniques that can be broken down in terms of how often you see them in an average bout, as I tried to do with karate, based on my experiences. All martial arts come down to positioning yourself and your opponent so you can deliver your most lethal strikes and techniques to end the conflict, and can be broken down into standard techniques (at will), Effective techniques that require positioning and can end a fight(encounter) and deadly fight finishing techniques that require precises positioning (daily).

The power system works for me in this regard.

Phaezen

 

[justanobody]

Nothing specifically Oriental about Martial Arts:

Goju Ryu Iri Kumi

Sounded Korean to me.

It isn't the African (Brazilian?) one that I can't spell or pronounce very good, but can get close with fun-etics.

Cop-a-way-uh

 

[Phaezen]

Sounded Korean to me.

Okinawan, Goju-Ryu is the style, Iri kumi is a semi contact, non stop bout, compared to kumite where the fight stops with every point (similar to fencing).

It isn't the African (Brazilian?) one that I can't spell or pronounce very good, but can get close with fun-etics.

Cop-a-way-uh

A mix of origins occur in the athletic movements of Capoeira, a practice that was created in Brazil by slaves and was based on skills brought with them from Africa.

It is a very loose and flexible style, most of the training looks like dancing, as they had to disguise the fact they were training.

I would say all martial arts, even wrestling and boxing, have thier strengths and would be very hesitant to say which is the best. It comes down to the relative skill of the combatants at the end of the day.

Phaezen

 

[justanobody]

You had it right there and I still couldn't figure it out by the spelling! I know someone that excels at it, but never seen it in writing.

I am jsut saying for the powers, they seem a bit too much even compared to what the different martial arts can do realistically.

I prefer fighters to not look like they are using some magic pushmepullyou stuff without contact.

You are a melee class, so get physical!

 

[Phaezen]

I am jsut saying for the powers, they seem a bit too much even compared to what the different martial arts can do realistically.

I prefer fighters to not look like they are using some magic pushmepullyou stuff without contact.

You are a melee class, so get physical!

Fair enough. However a lot of fighting does involve controlling distance. Just by changing your stance or dropping a defense you can entice an opponent to come closer or shift to the side. Likewise, there are several techniques, such as a thrusting snap kick than can move your opponent away from you.

Unfortunately, these things are difficult to see if you are watching a bout, unless you know what you are looking for.

Besides, once a martial powered class hits paragon, you are starting to hit the Bruce Lee level of things. As for Epic, you are meant to be doing what normal humans can't.

Phaezen

 

[Thasmodious]

Gee, what a shock to come to a thread wherein 4e players are discussing 4e systems in order to gain a greater familiarity and master of 4e rules only to find justanobody running on for pages telling us all how badwrongfun it all is.

Justanobody must be a 4e character, since his tactic just seems to be to spam the same attack power over and over and over again.

On a different note, this is what Come and Get It looks like a split second before its used -

 

[Bagpuss]

Justanobody must be a 3e character, since his tactic just seems to be to spam the same attack power over and over and over again.

Fixed it for you, I'm guessing he's wielding a spiked chain, focused on improved trip.

 

[Bagpuss]

There you go then. You answer your own question as to how it could be done in older editions and didn't require some video game power to do it.

No because of the issues I mentioned above. If the older edition rules allowed something to happen one round (like Goad) there was nothing to stop the player using the same trick every round. Which made for a really boring game.

So if the DM goes outside the rules to allow say bluff to do the feign injury trick, that either screws over the fighter that suggested the move because there is no way he'll have decent ranks in Bluff for a one off idea like that, or the Rogue character will automatically succeed, so want to try it again next round. What's to stop him?

Well perhaps the DM saying they won't fall for the same trick twice... so you can only do it once an encounter... hmm why not make it a power then?

So the power isn't need to do it.

No it's not needed, but it does give DM's and players more ideas, and more guide lines as to what's a sensible stunt for this level. A power is just this systems mechanic for handling dramatic action.

Explain to me why you can only swing your sword at more than one enemy in this sweeping motion once per encounter in 4th and that make sense?

Why don't you try it's very easy to do as well...

Feigning weakness, so that your enemies close to exploit it, then swing as they come in. They aren't foolish enough to fall for you bluff a second time.

Literally shout something like "Come on then" taunting the enemies to focus on you. After being beaten round the head, realising you are too much of a challenge, they decide to pick on an easier target.

Or all the enemies just happen to close on you at once, and you swing to defend yourself. Having seen your wild sweep, you enemies decide to pace their attacks hoping one can create an opening that a flanking one can exploit.

Because you ran out of use of the power right? So it is ok to be "like the movie where it has to happen" as mentioned by M_R, but you can only do it once, because a fighter is so inept at being able to do something more than once.

No your fighter is so skilled he can spot the opportunity to exploit the situation to do the powers effect, but the opportunity rarely happens during combat. A fighter without the power might be presented with the opportunity, but he lacks the skill to exploit it. It's why fighter powers are called exploits.

I call that a lack of options.

DM: Sorry Tom, you can't make anymore wild swings at the enemies hoping to hit more than one at a time because you used up your encounter power.

Isn't it great to play in a movie script where the director (DM/rules) dictate (railroad) you actions and choices?

Actually players in 4th Ed have more narrative control with their powers than they did in 3rd Ed. They can decide when the opportunity arises for them to pull off their exploits. They decide when the opponents line themselves up for their Whirlwind Attack.

Despite having Whirlwind attack with a 3rd Ed character for 5 levels I only ever got to use it once. Generally because we either fought so few opponents or because knowing I had it, the GM avoided letting me get in situations where it would be really useful.

In 4th Ed I now control those situations at least once an Encounter. I determine the narrative of the combat for that round, I determine the NPC motivations for focusing on me. I like the fact 4th Ed gives some of the fight choreography to the players.