I should probably be up-front about something. I'm really edition agnostic at this point. Personally I love 4th, but I think
3.x is going to be around for a long time.
The fact that there's an existing LEW world that's been built up a certain way is a bit of a disincentive for me to do the same thing.
Do we need to try to camp out in their space?
Why not differentiate?
I'm not saying we shouldn't look to prior LEW games for guidance and inspiration, but I'm not sure that we should try to grow the pie instead of "caniballizing sales".
(Yes, my graduate course just started the strategy class... why do you ask...
)
Personally I am not keen on the zones idea, while I appreciate Graf's points about ease of use the concept seems a little too forced and I am not sure how well it works with the points of light theme encouraged in 4th edition.
If, by forced you mean "planned" or "though-out" then I buy what you're saying. If by "forced" you're trying to say "that isn't the game I want to run" then honestly?
I think you're missing the boat.
If you can get around the fact that it isn't 3 mud huts surround by monsters the whole Imperium is very PoL.
Who are the points of light? The PCs.
What is everything else? The darkness. That wasn't deliberate, per se, but I'm influenced by what I run.
PoL-as-nearly-undeveloped-(or-post-apocalyptic)-wilderness is a fantastic concept; as I alluded toI'm running an "
extreme PoL" game already on the boards and I think its great (the PoL concept, not the game).
Personally I have to note that it was already
- discussed in the thread and rejected (though we should probably do a poll)
- I think its better for 1-DM games
- it means different things to different people
- it's restrictive (which can be creatively stimulating, but if you add it together with the last point means a lot of "no you can't do that" oriented discussion)
And if we do accept it? We should do so for positive reasons, not because "It's assumed for 4th".
I realize that you were just sharing your thoughts in a rapid fire manner, but saying "its default for 4th, so lets use it" seems like it runs the risk of cutting off debate.
Interesting thoughts, Graf, and a fun-sounding setting. I'm not sure it's right for L4W for various reasons I'll not get into at the moment, since you said it's only an example, not a proposal.
[sblock=Transitive Seas]I am starting to be fond of the idea of a somewhat flexible world, but I'm also fond of a certain degree of... stability isn't quite the right word. The idea I'm trying to describe is that the "flexibility", i.e. the changefulness and not-completely-predictable geography might be more common at the wild outskirts and less common in central, settled areas. As a concrete example, suppose if the main starting "vale" were an island continent perhaps a thousand miles in diameter. On the mainland, geography is pretty stable, and people mostly get from one place to another by walking (or sailing, or riding, or whatever): with a few exceptions (unnatural storms, mysterious megaliths, etc), it's a normal, not very flexible world. But the sea is connected to a transitive plane, such that navigation is more art than science, and there could be a few rare portals connecting the mainland to outlying islands or other continents. A long trip to a far island or another continent might involve a choice between a series of sea journeys between islands that have stable portals, or a long overland trip to a stone circle that, when prodded correctly, will carry you to a matching circle near your destination, or whatever.
Obviously a very rough idea, but something like this allows both a fairly cohesive central area that isn't very vulnerable to the passing fancy of individual DMs, but still allows quite a lot of flexibility far from the center. Those of us that prefer to run adventures in areas that other people have fleshed out fairly well already can play in the center, and more creative people can do whatever they want in the outlying areas. Graf's Imperium setting isn't far from this.
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Just sblocked your proposal since it's long.
I kinda got the feeling you started somewhere and wound up somewhere else. Since your first line is " I'm not sure it's right for L4W for various reasons ..." and your last line, after summarizing your setting was to say "Graf's Imperium setting isn't far from this."
But just to pull it to the foreground
- I think your setting is a subset of the alternative proposal
- your setting as the "core" would be very similar, in structural terms, to using the core Imperium isolates as the core.
The only difference really is that you want ships instead of shifts and you want to say that that all isolates are "islands"
(btw isolate = island... not an accidental choice)
Its so similar in structure and differing only really in fluff that I can't help but wonder if you're trying to get a world that's only ships and islands.
I think we'll need to poll it, but I have to admit that I'm not sure what narrative value we get from ONLY ships and islands.
Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant...
[sblock=Fantastic stuff]
I'd also like to offer my collaboration specifically to create a pantheon for imperium. I believe the Greek pantheon will be perfect inspiration for this, for various reasons. First, with twelve or so major gods that have both a positive and a negative aspect, it's easy to sum up all the most important spheres of "competence". Furthermore, it is well known how several deities were revered both officially and in "mysterious cults". Adding demi-gods and minor local deities would be extremely easy for that was the nature of the actual ancient greek religion. Finally, ancient greek religion had a generational nature, coming from the fact that more ancient gods were actually supplanted by the cults of populations invading the Aegean region, and survived mostly in myths and tradition (the myths have a repetitive nature too: Chronos overthrew Ouranos, and was overthrown by Zeus... who then defeated the primordial and savage forces of old represented by Titans and Hecatoncheires... this works so well with 4e fluff too... the Abys could be well called Thartarus and imprison a "chained god" or two... i'd say it fits)
EDIT: a simple sample pantheon of 12 deities, very basic. Obviously the names are not very appropriate as they are too reminiscent of the actual greek names.
[sblock]
Deiòs: The god of kings. He governs the sky, the thunder and lightning. The eagle is his symbol, as it is one of the symbols of the Imperium. He is said to have defeated the Primordials and brought peace to the Cosmos.
He also has a somewhat tyrannical and capricious aspect too, and storms are often explained as a manifestation of his anger.
Hadeys: The keeper of the dead. His name is not spoken least it brings misfortune to those who utter it. He is said to dwell and rule in the Shadowlands.
Poseeydus: Ruler of the Seas and great Lakes, he has influence over the winds, sea travels, and waterbound beasts. He's a feared deity and always sacrificed to before long travels (note: in absence of great seas or oceans, this may be a deity governing the shift passages?)
Phoebus: God of the Sun and light. He is said to give mortals the gift of prophecy and foreseeing. In his angered aspect, he is the god of archery and pestilence.
Proserphones: Bride of Hades. Goddes of melancholy and gloom, but also tied to the seasonal cycle and land fertility.
Eefeystos: God of Fire and forge. Mostly revered by dwarves, he is often depicted as maimed. A secluded god, dwelling in the Elemental chaos.
Aressus: God of war and strenght. Mostly tied to the violent aspect of battle, he is often given the attribute of cowardice. Often revered by goblinoids.
Hermethis: God of trickery,lies, travel, and luck. He's considered nimble and witty, and often revered by thieves and rogues. He is also said to show the souls the way to the afterlife.
Palladys: Goddess of wisdom and intelligence, but also tied to wars and protection. One of the most revered deities in the Imperium.
Arthamis: Goddess of woods, virginity, hunt and wild beasts, sister of Phoebus. She often represents the wildest aspect of the natural world. Highly revered by feys and other wood-dwelling creatures.
Erath: Bride of Deiòs, goddes of queens and priestesses. She watches upon the order, both in the family and the State. Keeper of traditions, she's also referred to as the goddes of righteous revenge.
Aphrodeys: Goddes of love and passion. Representation of beauty and charm. Also in his hostile aspect, the deity of blinding passion and disorder, and illusions.
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[sblock=Wow]That's fantastic.
Religion/gods/actual history are not my strong suit.
This is just fantastic.
Like the idea of Poseeydus governing the shifts, and the shifting sea.
I'm re-did the wiki, I think people are getting the wrong idea about what I was suggesting. (time... my enemy)
What do you think about shifting some of the genders a bit. I realize this makes me sound like a frothing politically correct type, but anyway...
(I am I suppose)
I realize you're working off the existing gods but I might consider mixing it up a bit (though Palladys is female, of course; which matches the greek stuff but is a nice change from the idea of learning as being embodied by a male god (Thoth, Azune, Boccob, Vecna, Aureon
)
A female war god? (sort of have that with Arthamis: & Erath though right?)
I like that Aressus is tied to both strength and combat and also cowardice .
Maybe it's perfect as is....
I'd assumed the Imperium was a patriarchy, it'd be interesting if their gods matriarchical (maybe they weren't originally eldarin gods or the eldarin weren't originally a patriarchy?)
Or... I'd be interesting if the "drow demon cult" was originally just goddess-worship oriented mystery cult and didn't go dark and evil until after it was exiled.
I like that a lot actually.[/sblock]
Very cool world, Graf. I like the lexicon including slang and imperial words, it would really give playing the Imperium a unique feel.
It seemed an easy way to add color. And it's optional. If a character isn't from the Imperium... they talk "normal PC".
An imperium scholar might try to argue when the adventurer is calling an isolate a plane, but it's a technical definition no-one really cares about. And nothing says the Imperium is actually correct...
Anyway, the Imperium is just a start point for discussion. It's an element.
I think we're better off working up
interesting elements and then trying to tie them together instead of starting off with "the whole campaign will be X" (PoL, civilized, greek, whatever) or "geography" (it'll all be islands and ships, or in a world made of mountains, or whatever)
[sblock=God specific chat]
Atanatotatos' deities are a fine selection of modified Greek gods, if we do decide to go that route.
I think people had mentioned that having a lot of unconnected gods is annoying from a roleplaying perspective. Especially if PCs just make up gods for their own characters without looking at the broader scope.
I have to say that I see a single set (or a few sets) of more or less unified gods has been really appealing to me in settings like Eberron and The Scarred Lands.
And mishmashes of randomly collected gods has been a bit of a turn off for me (most settings).
Personally I'd like to consider doing something eberron style (or
houjin suijaku if you want a real world analogy).
The gods are somewhat transient forces that manifest in different ways to different peoples. So the war gods are all different faces of one "war god".
If someone wants to make a new god to for a player they can
1. reskin an existing god
2. create a demi-god linked to one of the big 12 (or whatever we decide)
DMs can of course introduce god-like beings (titans, demon lords) through some sort of approval process. (just thinking out loud here)
There's no truly evil god, which is interesting, but I think in line with the Greek pantheon.
I see ata talked about this, but personally? I buy it.
Being good gives you moral authority.
You can have lots of evil forces that function like gods (worshipers, priests, etc) but not have them be part of the official pantheon (see the eight and the six in eberron)
And I'm moving towards the "A very few established gods and lots of minor demigods/cults" camp. Wik made a character in LEW who worships Uncle Spider, a minor "saint" of one of the gods. Uncle Spider has a very different flavor than his parent deity, but their goals are in alignment. I think it's important for characters to be able to easily create the characters they want while also maintaining a firm core pantheon for creation myth, culture, and the PCs for whom a tailored religion isn't necessary.
this comment?
right on the head of the nail
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The feywild and the shadowlands do sound cool! And I think Wizards intends for them to be more accessible, possibly as "low-level planes". That's the feeling I get anyway.
This has been said many times.
If we're talking about "core 4e concepts to embrace" this would be a good one to start with.
You can do cool stuff at any level, instead of just saying "you must be 10th level before you go to another plane".
Especially since, in a PbP people will be low level for... forever.
My infant will be playing DnD with me, at the table and arguing rules before anyone in 4e LEW is 10th level.
It's a fact we'll need to accept.
The Imperium, while very cool, might not work for LEW for several reasons, but I think it should be added to the list of settings on the wiki poll page.
I see the confusion. I realize this is my fault.
Let me see if I can zoom out away from the Imperium to give a
broader picture. (sorta not really done but anyway)
I am happy to compromise the zones thing,...
There has been a -lot- of interest in a sea/Caribbean/islands-in-water type area/setting/zone.
I think this is a great, wonderful thing and we should consider build on it/foreground it, without making it the sole focus of the world, once we get to the setting building stage.
I've spitballed up an
easy compromise. I used third person view (i.e. from the Imperium's perspective) to minimize my impact... it's just what the Imperium might think, it'll actually be.... whatever covaithe & team carribean (if they're still around) come up with.
There are a lot of ways to skin this cat, I just think we don't need to dive right in and define the world as "just x nothing else".
We can start with non-restrictive elements, built a framework and then start to get specific about locations and geography(planar relationships, whatever).
I have an idea for a poll brewing...
