Disjoin soul, Final version?

[Cheiromancer]

A new version! I'll go through it again; might find something I missed the first time through, plus I can comment on the changes.

Disjoin soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)

So a dimensional anchor or dimensional lock will prevent the spell from working, correct?

Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (special see text)
...
On a failed save the body is killed by the strain, otherwise it still suffers from the trauma and is reduced to -8 hit points.

So even if they make the save they are at -8 hit points?! This is better than a save-or-die spell; it is no-save-and-die spell. Being at -8 hit points is almost as bad as being dead. A single blow or magic missile (heck, even an acid splash) will put you over the edge.

Oh, I note you don't specify what happens if the victim receives magical healing when at -8 hp. It would be odd to be at positive (or full hit points) and be without a soul.

The cast of this spell disjoins the targets soul, separating it from the body and casting it into the negative energy plane. ... The soul must find its own way back to the body by making a wisdom check against a DC of 20 every round until they succeed, as the path back is based more on intuition then direction. However after every round the soul looses part of itself, represented in 1d6 points of charisma drain, and 1d6 points of wisdom damage due to the hostile environments warping ability....Incorporeal creatures are still affected even though they do not have a corporeal body they still have a dual nature, a ‘body’ and a soul.

"Incorporeal" means "no body" so I have to disagree with your explanation. I accept the effect, though; if the spell can cast a person's soul into a distant plane, it surely can do the same thing to a creature who is "all soul." I might want to say that such a creature is treated as having planeshifted away, but your method works, too. However, I don't think it could be the negative energy plane that souls are being sent to. Suppose you cast this spell on a ghost or other undead; why would it suffer from exposure to a plane that is normally beneficial to undead?

The soul must find its own way back to the body by making a wisdom check against a DC of 20 every round until they succeed, as the path back is based more on intuition then direction. However after every round the soul looses part of itself, represented in 1d6 points of charisma drain, and 1d6 points of wisdom damage.

Have you simulated the effects of this with some of your NPCs and PCs? A character with a good wisdom score (14 or 15) has a 15% chance of making the check on the first round, but then they pretty much need a natural 20. After the 4th round they are out of luck. This is very deadly for characters who aren't clerics, druids or monks.

A successful dispel targeted at the victims last known space, ends the spell realising the characters soul, if they make a successful fortitude save they return to the body, due to the unusual method of the souls release only a true resurrection can return the character to life.

A Limited wish is able to rejoin the body to the soul but not return it to life, however due to the spells power any of the resurrection spells can return the character to life. A Full Wish spell (or miracle) rejoins the body to the soul as well as returning the creature to life. A Disjunction spell cast in the area wipes the soul from existence, meaning the creature may only be recreated by the act of a God.

Too many special effects, imho, and they are a little weird. A mage's disjunction generally works like a very efficient dispel magic; if dispel magic returns the soul, why does mage's disjunction totally destroy it? And why disallow a resurrection spell if the soul returns to find its body dead? It should be easier to raise such a character than one who was made undead, and that only requires a resurrection.

 

[domino]

What would this do to undead with souls?

 

[Ferret]

Cheiro first, then domino.

Yes, It would work. I don't mind that, save that it would mean a spell that was 5 levels lower would, but then it also blocks gate, So I don't mind.

Yeah it is harsh, but it was your idea . It isn't a very nice idea, Would 2d6 points of constitution damage leaving a minimum of 1 be too much? 2d4? It should dent the HP as well as make then 'weak' The creature would be comatose whilst the spell is active.

The incorporeal creature still has a visible (if not physical) 'body', although it isn't a body as such, It has a soul, and something else, because they aren't all soul. This does raise the question about outsiders who don't have a dual nature. When you say planeshifted, do you mean to clarify what happens to all creatures souls, or just explain how incorporeal creaturres are effected?

Where would they [undead] go that would effect them like that? Would they even be effected by the trauma? I would say yes, but it shouldn't be represented by loss of con, especial the one without it.

The Wisdom check is brutal with the loss of wisdom, but it doesn't seem enough as a charisma drain, although if I do use the con damage it isn't just that.

Yeah, I had them designed for the old one and just adjusted things, I will change or remove them.

It should, although I don't know what it would do if it sent them to the Negetive energy plane....Unless the soul is still susceptable, it's only the whole that benefits [from the negetive energy].

Thanks

 

[Cheiromancer]

Yeah it is harsh, but it was your idea.

Well, I suggested that it be an intelligence check and that you drain wisdom and charisma. Draining the stat that the check was based on wasn't my idea. If you do that, maybe make it a DC 15 check instead of a DC 20.

I suppose you could do con damage; if there is a link between the body and the soul, the link could go two ways; negative energy could flood into the body along the channel that the soul went away along (and along which it is trying to return).

I don't think it should be the negative energy plain, though. Something far realms related would be better; a fractured reality incapable of supporting life as we know it, universally hostile to all sentient beings, unable to be grasped by any sane intellect.

The incorporeal creature still has a visible (if not physical) 'body', although it isn't a body as such, It has a soul, and something else, because they aren't all soul.

What evidence do you have that incorporeal creatures have a body? I'd say they have a visible soul, but that incorporeal means "no body." Look at the etymology of the word.

When you say planeshifted, do you mean to clarify what happens to all creatures souls, or just explain how incorporeal creaturres are effected?

I understand the spell as separating the incorporeal part of human beings (the soul) from the corporeal part (the body) and sending the incorporeal part into a distant plane. No separation can occur with incorporeal creatures, but the part that sends the incorporeal part away still occurs; it just sends the whole creature, is all. Being completely transported to another plane is like being planeshifted. A creature with a body can find its way back, since there is still a tenuous link with its body, but an incorporeal creature has nothing to link to. That's why I suggested being planeshifted. Still, there might be an energy trail or something that incorporeal creatures could follow. So you don't have to have a special mechanic for incorporeal creatures.

This does raise the question about outsiders who don't have a dual nature.

The spell should just fail if it targets an outsider, or other corporeal creature who lacks the relevant body/soul duality.

 

[Ferret]

Well, I suggested that it be an intelligence check and that you drain wisdom and charisma. Draining the stat that the check was based on wasn't my idea. If you do that, maybe make it a DC 15 check instead of a DC 20.

I suppose you could do con damage; if there is a link between the body and the soul, the link could go two ways; negative energy could flood into the body along the channel that the soul went away along (and along which it is trying to return).

Maybe it wan't the nicest idea to damage wisdom, I will remove that. On the con damage I was thinking just more in terms of stress, then negetive backlash, and I think it works better then taking them down to low HP.

I don't think it should be the negative energy plane, though. Something far realms related would be better; a fractured reality incapable of supporting life as we know it, universally hostile to all sentient beings, unable to be grasped by any sane intellect.

I don't like the idea of sending it to the Far realms, I definatly want something impersonal, like the plane of shadows ornegetive energy. I could say it was just set into limbo, nothingness, and the experience rather then the place deals the damage, does that make sense? Or it could just be a freshly made demi-plane.

What evidence do you have that incorporeal creatures have a body? I'd say they have a visible soul, but that incorporeal means "no body." Look at the etymology of the word.

My logic is that incorporeal creatures (unless they are outsiders or elementals) have dual natures, dual natures have a soul and a body. And by body I don't mean something physical. The only exception I can think of is the ghost which should be just a soul, all other incorporeal creaturs aren't just soul. Actually, all the creatures I can find in the MM that are incorporeal are dead. Or undead shall I say. I don't think it should effect undead at all (anyway).

I understand the spell as separating the incorporeal part of human beings (the soul) from the corporeal part (the body) and sending the incorporeal part into a distant plane. No separation can occur with incorporeal creatures, but the part that sends the incorporeal part away still occurs; it just sends the whole creature, is all. Being completely transported to another plane is like being planeshifted. A creature with a body can find its way back, since there is still a tenuous link with its body, but an incorporeal creature has nothing to link to. That's why I suggested being planeshifted. Still, there might be an energy trail or something that incorporeal creatures could follow. So you don't have to have a special mechanic for incorporeal creatures.


The spell should just fail if it targets an outsider, or other corporeal creature who lacks the relevant body/soul duality.

I would not call the soul incorporeal (as such), I would say it was intangible though. Unfortunatly the rules don't state what a soul is, so you couldn't prove it one way or the other (I don't think you could). I wouldn't label all bodies as corporeal. Souls are the invisible, untouchable, spiritual part. The body (not necessarily physical) is the housing, the casing, the tangible part that links the soul to the world, it's what weighs it down whether or not it is corporeal or not. Otherwise I would say that it is like planeshift, and I might raise the check as it is harder to find your way back.

At least I agree with the outsider thing.

Thanks for letting me bounce ideas off of you.

 

[Cheiromancer]

That other thread you bumped (about souls/spirits/psyche/pneuma/...) is extremely intimidating. I think the main lesson to be learned from it is: don't try to define a soul in terms of game mechanics. Then it doesn't matter if this spell disjoins 1, 2, 3 or 3.5 distinct elements; it is flavor text what is really happening, although it is flavor text that guides the design of the mechanics.

If it is unnecessary to define a soul, it is also unnecessary to define what plane it is being sent to. It's just a "bad place." Maybe the spell sends the soul to a different bad place depending on its nature; some living creatures might end up in the negative energy plane, while some undead end up on the positive energy plane. Or in hell, or gehenna, or the abyss, or... Or maybe the spell creates a different bad place for each soul. A little extradimensional space like that created by the maze spell. It doesn't matter, and you don't have to list any of the possibilities in the spell. It's just a "fractured realm of madness and horror which quickly breaks down the exiled soul" or something else flavorful.

Deciding not to define these terms solves some of your problems, but not all of them. The bit about dispel magic and mage's disjunction having opposite effects still doesn't make a lot of sense. Fiddling around with resurrection works only to an extent. You can say that if the soul is drained and trapped in the "bad place" that a wish or miracle needs to be used to return it, but saying that they lose an extra level on being raised is hard to swallow.

These kinds of decisions are motivated by aesthetics; what makes a spell elegant and interesting, as opposed to needlessly complicated and obscure. YMMV.

 

[Ferret]

I think when I get time tomorrow I'[m going to go over the extra bits of how this spell effects other spells. Honestly as the spell is instantaneous, Dispel magic shouldn't even work.....and the others are at least half as crazy.

 

[Ferret]

Ok, third version: Clarified the situation if the soul leaves, giving a chance to return to life, clarifying what spell do what to the creature and how it effects other various creatures.

Disjoin soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Standard action
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (special see text)
Spell resistance: Yes

The cast of this spell disjoins the targets soul, separating it from the body and casting it into a hostile plane. On a failed save the body is killed by the strain, otherwise it still suffers from the trauma and suffers 2d6 points of Con damage and falls unconscious. The soul must find its own way back to the body by making a wisdom check against a DC of 20 every round until they succeed, as the path back is based more on intuition then direction. However after every round the soul looses part of itself, represented in 1d6 points of charisma drain. If either stat is reduced to 0 the souls is trapped on the other side and requires a Wish or Miracle to return the body. Once the soul is returned it must make a fortitude save to rejoin with the body or remain dead and unresponsive to any spell less powerful then resurrection, in the case of the unconscious target it can only be awakened by a greater restoration spell. If the save is made the target regains life but at -9, or simply awakens.

A Limited wish is able to release the soul but not negate the need for a secondary fort save. A Full Wish spell (or miracle) returns the soul as well as returning the creature to life (negating the second fort save).

All Elementals, and Outsiders are unaffected as they do not have a dual nature. Mindless Constructs, Plants, Undead and Vermin are also unaffected. Incorporeal creatures can be affected; they leave what appears to be an intangible mist behind instead of a corporeal body.

Material Component: Obsidian dust clenched in the casters fist, worth at least 70gp

Have I missed anything?

 

[Cheiromancer]

A will save should negate it. Period. If the character fails the will save, then you need to track what is happening with the soul (if it finds its way back or gets its charisma drained, etc.) and with the body.

The spell still needs a lot of work, but I believe everything that needs to be said about it has already been mentioned more than once in this thread.

 

[Ferret]

Can I at least just take 2d6 points of constitution from them? No soul stealing I promise.

Actually, that doesn't make sense. If the ones that die are ressurection they should be ok ish but the ones who succeed are left with a great 2d6 con loss. I need some retribution if they succeed like other spells do (finger of death, disintergrate)