D&D 5E Divine Archetypes

[slobo777]

Unless we are going back to something more like 3e domains/2e spheres and each archetype has several associated with it.

That is what I am assuming. But it's just a guess.

 

[pemerton]

What archetypes would I like to see?

Am I the only one a little sad to lose the 4e pantheon?

<snip>

it was actually, IMO, a really good pantheon, with some definite thought put into the areas of control these deities have that weren't necessarily adventuring-related.

I like the 4e pantheon, though some of its elements - especially Melora and Avandra - don't do a lot for me, and I also think that Asmodeus, Bane and Tiamat are three gods trying to fill a conceptual space that really only has room for two.

But one thing I definitely do like about it, which goes to the question of what archetypes I would like to see, is its fusion of "adventuring" and "non-adventuring" domains into each god, so that (i) the whole pantheon, or at least a good chunk of it, actually sees play in a standard adventure-oriented campaign, yet (ii) the pantheon more-or-less covers the whole reach of human (and demi-human) endeavour in a reasonably plausible fashion.

Relating that to the OP's list, I would like to see the Healer be more like Pelor and less like the Franciscans (who don't really go in even for pacifying opponents, at least not in the D&D sense of pacification!), and I would like the Artisan to have a more overt adventuring role also: perhaps the god of arms and armour (given that these are forged items that are crucial for many adventurers), or (as per 4e) the god of community, which gives a kind of defender/protector role like Moradin.

4e actually breaks the Scholar into 4 gods: Ioun, Corellon, Vecna and Tharizdun, and in my game that has worked quite well. D&Dnext recognises the importance of secret knowledge in D&D setting and situation design via its "Forbidden Lore" skill, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to split the Scholar into the different categories that 4e does. For example, a pantheon in which Ioun picked up magic from Corellon, and Avandra, Moradin and Erathis split art and music among themselves, would be different from the 4e one but not obviously worse.

Still, I think there is an argument for at least distinguishing the merely esoteric or learned scholar (Ioun, Corellon, even Erathis under a certain interpretation) from the more secretive or mad scholar (Vecna, Tharizdun). The friendly (if mysterious, absent-minded and sometimes evens scary) sage is a different D&D archetype from the raving mad lich or cultist.

I like the Crusader (Bahamut, Heironeous, Cuthbert - strong resonances with certain real-world medieval archetypes) and the Tempest (Kord, Thor). There is also room for the less inspired and more grimly determined warrior (Bane, Odin). In 4e Bane is also linked to government (tyranny - hence the overlap with Asmodeus), creating a nice counterpoint to Erathis, who reflects the more ideal rather than material aspect of government (law). But you could try and slice the warrior pie in different ways: Ares, for example, gives us a Warrior or Slayer archetype who is wild, like Thor and Kord, but without the tempest dimension, and closer to Bane than Thor or Kord with an absence of a sense of fair play and less of a "warfare as just a game or sport" approach. In 4e Hruggek is an exarch of Bane, but Hruggek could equally work as an exarch or aspect of a more brutish, murderous Ares-style war god.

There probably needs to be a Messenger or Traveller archetype. In 4e this is Avandra. I think I would like it better if the Messenger/Traveller was closer to Wagner's version of Odin in the Ring Cycle - grim and learned, rather than happy-go-lucky. The Traveller can also be a god of death, as Odin is, because death is often seen as a journey, and is expressly portrayed that way in D&D, with the soul travelling to other planes upon death.

In any event, I think there clearly does need to be a Death archetype, whether linked to Travel/Divination (as I've canvassed), or Fate (as in 4e) or even both (Istus, from Greyhwak, might be more interesting if she were developed a bit in this general direction).

There also probably has to be a Nature archetype, although perhaps that could be rolled into the Healer (plants, sun) and the Tempest (wind, storms, the seas). But even though I personally find Melora probably the least interesting of the 4e deities, a lot of people seem to like nature gods. One way to make a nature god more interesting, in my view, can be to link it back a bit to the Scholar, and the idea of knowledge of the elements and the inner workings of the natural world (for some reason I think of Greyhawk's Obad-Hai in this way, even though I'm not sure that he is presented as a scholarly god in the canonical texts).

Anyway, thanks to the OP for starting an interesting thread!

 

[slobo777]

[Snip]

Still, I think there is an argument for at least distinguishing the merely esoteric or learned scholar (Ioun, Corellon, even Erathis under a certain interpretation) from the more secretive or mad scholar (Vecna, Tharizdun). The friendly (if mysterious, absent-minded and sometimes evens scary) sage is a different D&D archetype from the raving mad lich or cultist.

[Snip]

There probably needs to be a Messenger or Traveller archetype. In 4e this is Avandra. I think I would like it better if the Messenger/Traveller was closer to Wagner's version of Odin in the Ring Cycle - grim and learned, rather than happy-go-lucky. The Traveller can also be a god of death, as Odin is, because death is often seen as a journey, and is expressly portrayed that way in D&D, with the soul travelling to other planes upon death.

Pulled out these quotes, because they point to something interesting - every archetype can have positive and negative traits (or more generally an "angle" which provides more of a story). You can build an interesting pantheon by taking a number of bland archetypes relevent to a world, and then selectively accentuate the positive or negative aspects to turn them into separate benefactors and maleficants with personality and a purpose.

Also, combining two traditional archetypes will create something with more depth and personality (unfortunately this would work against a "generic" pantheon)

 

[Li Shenron]

Reading about Divine archetypes like the deceiver in the latest L&L made me do a little brainstorming. What archetypes would I like to see?

Also a very common archetype is the "Earthmother", with the god(dess) identified with the land itself, presiding agricultural activities, weather, folklore, protecting hearth and family.

I would like to see at least two separate "Death" archetypes: one would be the neutral or even good type (like Anubi, Kelemvor, Hades...), with its priests taking care of funeral arrangements and burial, and the deity embodying the natural aspect of death as rest. IOW a deity that doesn't want anybody dead any sooner than proper, and might even allow someone to go back if the death was unfair, but hates undeath as something unnatural.

And the second "Death" archetype would be the evil type (e.g. Nerull) which considers life useless or inferior to existence after death, is pleased whenever someone dies, and uses the undead as agents and undeath as a reward.

 

[gyor]

Also a very common archetype is the "Earthmother", with the god(dess) identified with the land itself, presiding agricultural activities, weather, folklore, protecting hearth and family.

I would like to see at least two separate "Death" archetypes: one would be the neutral or even good type (like Anubi, Kelemvor, Hades...), with its priests taking care of funeral arrangements and burial, and the deity embodying the natural aspect of death as rest. IOW a deity that doesn't want anybody dead any sooner than proper, and might even allow someone to go back if the death was unfair, but hates undeath as something unnatural.

And the second "Death" archetype would be the evil type (e.g. Nerull) which considers life useless or inferior to existence after death, is pleased whenever someone dies, and uses the undead as agents and undeath as a reward.

That would be two different, almost opposing Archetypes, One Death as a natural process, need for the life cycle, and would also deal with the transition to the afterlife.

The other Archetype is Undeath, not a second death Archtype, its about cheating death is natural due, you died in one sense, but your not dead, your still kicking, without being truely alive the natural cycle is broken.

I have a feeling that most of the Archetypes will be based somewhat on 4e domains (not warpriest domains, regular ones from Divine Power). So I expect to see Beauty Archetype, Craft, Sun, Moon, Nature, Healing, Arcane, Madness, and so on.

I think we'll be finding out tomorrow, they said near the end of October and I think these updates are usually released on a Monday.

At the very least by Wednsday.