DM advice needed - my party one-round BBEG's

[Blue]

I'm having issues making fights memorable for my players because they're just a bit too efficient at killing...

...

But that's almost besides the point (I think) because:- they can deal A LOT of damage in that round.

...

It's really cool that the party can get to be bad-ass, but unfortunately it's also a total anti-climax for them. The party love it when they get through by the skin of their teeth - they talk about it for weeks afterwards. When they one-round the foe they've been chasing down for the past 3 months (human time), it's a forgettable and disappointing experience.

Has anyone got any tips to provide the challenge and entertainment without negating/nerfing their tactics?

My guess is that the DM isn't pushing 6-8 encounters a day. Or at least 4. Because thoses are the symptoms I see for that.

Yes, a party of 10th level should be able to smoke a 200HP foe in a round if they focus fire and have full resources. If you want attrition battles, you need to have a good number of them per day.

Let me unpack "attrition" - there are plenty of ways to have encounter goals that are more then just "who killed whom". Stopping rituals, capturing before the escape, etc. But for the general "live through it by the skin of their teeth" that you talk about, that's your standard attrition - where they get ground away, seeming okay but with a few less resources every time, until when they are dealing with the big bad they don't have those sneak spells left - they used them to get close, they don't have high level slots for smites, or what have you.

And that works well with 6+ battles each long rest, with about two supplemental short rests. You can fudge it some with more powerful encounters, but still many resources are very efficient if used on one big battle so you still can't regularly go under four and still keep that level of wearing away going on.

You didn't mention other encounters at all, let's see how I did. Because these symptoms sound very similar to what I've seen before and i'd like you're feedback if I guessed right.

Are they going in to these boss fights with 4-5+ challenging encounters already done in the same day?

EDIT: There is no shame in doing fewer encounters if it's what fits the narrative. It's just that the 5e mechanics aren't as good at supporting that type of narrative as they are a dungeon crawl.

 

[Eltab]

A BBEG who knows magic and has a high-powered adventurer team coming his way will take precautions:
The PCs pass through an Alarm which triggers several other spells.
- BBEG has Mislead on himself. The PCs alpha-strike an illusion not the real BBEG.
- He might also put Sanctuary and/or Protection From Good and Evil on himself, so they really have to work for their to-hit rolls.
- Summon Monster N will bring reinforcements.
- Perma-cast Detect Magic on all the entrances to his lair, so the guards can see the PCs' Pass Without Trace field arrive.
- Send the PCs into a part of the building with Wards and Guards cast on it.
- Maze the Paladin (somehow) if he is the DPR King of the group.

 

[the Jester]

How is it that your pcs are always able to set the conditions of the fight? Are your BBEGs ever proactive about seeking their enemies out? A good BBEG may very well not be in their lair when the pcs breach it; in fact, they may pull a similar trick on your pcs, seeking them out after a long hard day of fighting through the minions and lackeys. And seeking them out with a bevy of (the strongest available) minions as guards/assassins/allies on hand.

It sounds like the pcs are dictating the nature of the encounter far more than just using a single effective tactic.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I've found that giving boss monsters max instead of average HP makes boss fights a lot more interesting. Now the BBEG can survive the nova with a decent amount of HP left, and the players will have to deal with attacks from the boss and his minions with their strongest powers already spent.

Regarding stealth, remember that Pass without Trace doesn't make you invisible. No matter how good your Stealth roll is, sneaking will fail if there's nowhere to hide. Let the BBEG post some sentries just outside his room instead of inside it and sneaking in becomes much much harder.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm having issues making fights memorable for my players because they're just a bit too efficient at killing...

The party:- 5x level 10 characters , an evoker wizard, war cleric, paladin, ranger/rogue, monk. They don't really min/max (except the cleric).

The issue:

The party have figured out a combination of "stealth & focus fire" tactic. So if they feel they are about to meet a BBEG the ranger will cast Pass Without Trace and the party will attempt to stealth. They are generally pretty good at this, with just the cleric and pally letting the team down on occasion with their clanky armour.

Once they stealth in, they tip toe into the BBEG's room/lair and initiative is rolled (the it's not-a-surprise-round round). They are generally rather well DEX based and can often do pretty well in initiative. But that's almost besides the point (I think) because:- they can deal A LOT of damage in that round.

They focus on the BBEG and unleash armageddon. Silence or Spiritual Guardians might get laid down around the BBEG. If the BBEG survives the ranged attacks, the Pally will lay the smack down with highest level smites available. Legendary BBEG's fair a little better since they can use legendary actions/saves. However, if the wizard or pally get a crit... dead BBEG. With the BBEG dead, they mop up the mooks easy peasy.

This is worst if they use the stealth tactic, but even if they fudge that, they can pretty easily one-round a 200HP creature.

It's really cool that the party can get to be bad-ass, but unfortunately it's also a total anti-climax for them. The party love it when they get through by the skin of their teeth - they talk about it for weeks afterwards. When they one-round the foe they've been chasing down for the past 3 months (human time), it's a forgettable and disappointing experience.

Has anyone got any tips to provide the challenge and entertainment without negating/nerfing their tactics?

Some nice ideas there. I'm actually running a published adventure but as time has gone on I'm scrapping more and more of the encounters as they don't seem to suit the party (also it is a PF adventure path and so the encounters are not designed for 5e and I've generally added more creatures to each encounter to balance out). Seems like I might have to do a lot more legwork for the encounters!

Do you have a specific example? What adventure are you running? Which villain from that adventure? Does it use Monster Manual stats or other stats? What is the listed CR? Have you confirmed that CR is roughly accurate (either by feel or by DMG guidelines)? What were the circumstances of the encounter in terms of objective, numbers, party “freshness”, etc?

 

[S'mon]

I've found that giving boss monsters max instead of average HP

Yes, also you can save time & get a well balanced result just by multiplying listed hp by x1.5.

 

[biktin]

Wow.. what a response! Thank you for all your great suggestions and intelligent discussion. I'll try to cover as many as I can.

Yes, this has happened when the party have had a full rest. The last time they had rested because they were so totally worn down - no spells, very low HP. They had spent time setting up and ensuring perimeters etc. To be honest, I could have disturbed their rest with a couple of mooks and that would have been a TPK. In that instance they were level 8, and the encounter was 1 x Stone Giant Dreamwalker, 2 x Stone Giants.

We're making our way through Rise of the Runelords, and they're just finishing up the fourth. Actually, funnily enough the fight for BBEG of that adventure went pretty well, even though they were full health. (Fight was, reskinned Storm Giant Quintessant as BBEG with a few added abilities + 2x CR5 Ogre zombies, BBEG gated at 25% health to a different portion of the fortress with 2x CR10 Guardian Nagas (also reskinned), although I had to tone down the Nagas a touch as it was pretty obvious that was a bit OTT (I only used spells up to 3rd level). Also, they didn't get the drop on that guy since he had alarm wards etc in place. again, they had had a full rest but again that would have been a one-round TPK if he had as much as sniffed at them before they had rested.

More often than not I tend to use monsters from Tome of Beasts re-skinned more often than not. They seem much more challenging than MM monsters, which the party seem to steam roller (they seem to have very low HP to me).

I'll be writing up (well, converting) their next adventure today so I will take a lot of these points on board for that.

 

[5ekyu]

Rule 1 "your pcs are not the first people in this world to cast those low level spells."

That means you dont have to ignore those spells in your setup and the threats they impose.

Second, stealth in 5e is not invisibility. You cant stealth down an occupied hall with your troupe of pcs. Hide checks are very very circumstance driven and +10 only matters if there is a success chance and a hide action.

So, rethink your setups to include "if i know 1st thru 3rd. Level spells exist, how would i do this defense?" Then,reread all the stealth and hiding bits and make sure you and your players are on the same page as to how it works for both their rsids on,NPCs and your NPC raids on,them.

After all, are they ok with a surprise wallop doing 200hp to them before they get to act? Or even 100 targeting say their healers?

How have they defended against this?

 

[Oofta]

In addition to the advice above, I'd like to add some simple mundane counters. In a world where invisibility exists paranoid BBEGs (and remember, only the paranoid survive) would have guards posted at all times. They'd also have things like squeaky door hinges, spots in the floor that make noticeable noise when you walk over them, or even simple things like smoke coming up from a grate in the floor that reveals a creature's passage as they walk through the otherwise still air.

Or as others have stated, illusions, body doubles, a manikin under the blankets, a BBEG with insomnia are all perfectly legitimate. There is no way the group should be able to get past all of the guards and security with a simple stealth check and I haven't even gotten to the magical options.

Taking on the BBEG should be a question of how you get access to them in the first place. Can you draw them out? Are they going on a trip where they are less protected? Can you bribe someone to give you the plans that show the secret entrance?

A last word on this is that in my experience solo monsters have never worked particularly well in any edition of D&D unless they can take advantage of environment, have some kind of assistance like lair actions, and are mobile enough to avoid attack.

 

[Bupp]

Some nice ideas there. I'm actually running a published adventure but as time has gone on I'm scrapping more and more of the encounters as they don't seem to suit the party (also it is a PF adventure path and so the encounters are not designed for 5e and I've generally added more creatures to each encounter to balance out). Seems like I might have to do a lot more legwork for the encounters!

Save yourself some work, do a google search for 5e conversions of the adventure that you are running. Other DMs have done the work, find one that fits your groups style and use their conversions.