D&D 5E DMG - breaking bounded accuracy already?

[Sacrosanct]

and what makes these mobs interesting? nothing..

No, the DM does. The DM makes mobs interesting. That's sort of what I've been trying to get at.

Look, I know it probably feels like you're getting dogpiled on here, and I don't want to contribute to that, and I feel bad for doing so. But it seems like you're entrenching yourself in a position as if it's no question, when pretty much everyone else in this thread disagrees. Certainly you can see how your preference is more of an exception, and not indisputable fact?

 

[fuindordm]

It's a funny weapon for sure. If you need a 20 to hit, then advantage improves your chance of hitting from 1/20 only to ~1/10 (+1), not +5, so the oathbow acts more like a bane weapon (i.e., dragon slayer). If your chance to hit is already good, on the other hand, then the oathbow is serious overkill.

What I like about the oathbow is that it offsets the disadvantage for shooting at long range, so if your enemy is fleeing you've got a good chance of getting in that last shot to take it down.

 

[Iosue]

I'm generally not one for white room scenarios, but if one was ever appropriate, this seems the time.

So let's take your standard human fighter. Standard array, STR 16 (15 + human bonus), CON 14 (13 + human bonus). We'll give him a sword, chain mail, and shield. His attack bonus is +5, average damage is 7, AC is 18, and HP is 12. We'll send him against a mob of Commoners (To-hit +2, dmg 2, AC 10, HP 4). We'll use the mob attack rules.

4 commoners are needed to hit our fighter once. Our fighter will hit a commoner 75%, so we'll say he hits 3 every 4 turns. And let's give the mob an advantage and say he misses the first one. Now, every time he hits, he automatically kills a commoner since his minimum damage is 4. So we'll say that a new commoners join the fray every time one is killed, to keep their numbers at at least 4.

After 6 turns, the vanilla 1st-level fighter has died. It's taken 7 commoners total, and he's killed 4 of them. Frankly that's pretty bad ass. Heck, give him the defense fighting style and now it takes 8 commoners to take him down. And note that if you stop at 7, he kills them all and escapes alive.

Let's kick it up to 5th level and give the fighter his extra attack and action surge. By this time, he can afford plate. His STR is now 18. Now he's to-hit +7, AC 21, HP 44. It takes 10 commoners to hit him once. We'll give the mob the advantage and round down so he's still hitting once every four turns.

After 22 turns, our fighter is dead. He's killed 32 commoners, and it's taken 42 to bring him down. If you stop at 41, he kills them all and escapes alive.

10th level! STR is now 20, CON is 16. To-hit +9; he hits 19 commoners every 20 rounds. HP 81. Let's give him a +1 shield, for an AC of 22. Now it takes 20 commoners to hit him once!

After 41 rounds, our fighter is dead. He's killed 78 commoners, and it's taken 98 to bring him down. Stop at 97, and he kills them all and escapes alive. At 11th level, with another extra attack, he kills 127 out of 147. Stop at 146, and he kills them all.

I don't think I need go on. That all feels right to me. It makes high-level fighters suitably powerful while not making them too far removed from realism even at 1st level. At the same time, mobs of monsters (more powerful than commoners) can still be a challenging fight.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you need a 20 to hit, then advantage improves your chance of hitting from 1/20 only to ~1/10 (+1), not +5

1/10 is +2 (on a d20)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

the question in my mind with bounded accuracy (and I do have a love hate relationship with it) is this... If I take a world class combat expert, like say an MMA fighter from Israel who was trained in military level krav maga and a couple other forms, and threw 10 big bullies from my old high school at him, would there be even a chance of the bullies winning the fight?

Or in D&D terms.

at what level should the number grow to ridicules levels... I personally feel a 10th level fighter should walk through 10-30 kobolds with it being a forgone conclusion he wins.

From a realistic point of view I know Jackie chan once said "If someone put a gun in my face and told me to give them my wallet I would, no matter how fast you are, you can never be sure."

 

[MasterTrancer]

the question in my mind with bounded accuracy (and I do have a love hate relationship with it) is this... If I take a world class combat expert, like say an MMA fighter from Israel who was trained in military level krav maga and a couple other forms, and threw 10 big bullies from my old high school at him, would there be even a chance of the bullies winning the fight?

Or in D&D terms.

at what level should the number grow to ridicules levels... I personally feel a 10th level fighter should walk through 10-30 kobolds with it being a forgone conclusion he wins.

From a realistic point of view I know Jackie chan once said "If someone put a gun in my face and told me to give them my wallet I would, no matter how fast you are, you can never be sure."

A chance? Definitely! Not the certainty, mind, but a chance for sure. It depends also on how the bullies play and coordinate.

 

[Enkhidu]

A chance? Definitely! Not the certainty, mind, but a chance for sure. It depends also on how the bullies play and coordinate.

This. Assuming we're talking about high-school bullies rather than little kids, 10 of them will take the lone fighter every time, if they attack en-masse and don't care about individual injuries.

Numbers matter.

 

[bganon]

This. Assuming we're talking about high-school bullies rather than little kids, 10 of them will take the lone fighter every time, if they attack en-masse and don't care about individual injuries.

Numbers matter.

Heck, I think if well-trained, 10 kids could have a good shot at taking down a lone MMA/krav maga/whatever fighter. I've been lucky enough to train with some very skilled martial artists, but dealing with multiple simultaneous attackers is HARD, and ten is a huge number.

Somewhat related story: one day at practice somebody brought in his kid (who'd been around martial arts all his life). He couldn't have possibly weighed more than 50 pounds. I was just doing some simple exercises with him, having fun, and then I blink and he's got me in an arm bar. Now sure, I'm not a huge dude, but I couldn't move. At all. 50 pounds in the right place will pin almost anyone.

If 10 clones of that kid jumped somebody at once, it's hard to imagine disabling all of them before one manages a lucky arm or leg pin, and at that point it's pretty much over.

 

[Halivar]

So let's take your standard human fighter. Standard array, STR 16 (15 + human bonus), CON 14 (13 + human bonus). We'll give him a sword, chain mail, and shield. His attack bonus is +5, average damage is 7, AC is 18, and HP is 12. We'll send him against a mob of Commoners (To-hit +2, dmg 2, AC 10, HP 4). We'll use the mob attack rules.4 commoners are needed to hit our fighter once. Our fighter will hit a commoner 75%, so we'll say he hits 3 every 4 turns. And let's give the mob an advantage and say he misses the first one. Now, every time he hits, he automatically kills a commoner since his minimum damage is 4. So we'll say that a new commoners join the fray every time one is killed, to keep their numbers at at least 4.After 6 turns, the vanilla 1st-level fighter has died. It's taken 7 commoners total, and he's killed 4 of them. Frankly that's pretty bad ass. Heck, give him the defense fighting style and now it takes 8 commoners to take him down. And note that if you stop at 7, he kills them all and escapes alive.Let's kick it up to 5th level and give the fighter his extra attack and action surge. By this time, he can afford plate. His STR is now 18. Now he's to-hit +7, AC 21, HP 44. It takes 10 commoners to hit him once. We'll give the mob the advantage and round down so he's still hitting once every four turns.After 22 turns, our fighter is dead. He's killed 32 commoners, and it's taken 42 to bring him down. If you stop at 41, he kills them all and escapes alive.10th level! STR is now 20, CON is 16. To-hit +9; he hits 19 commoners every 20 rounds. HP 81. Let's give him a +1 shield, for an AC of 22. Now it takes 20 commoners to hit him once!After 41 rounds, our fighter is dead. He's killed 78 commoners, and it's taken 98 to bring him down. Stop at 97, and he kills them all and escapes alive. At 11th level, with another extra attack, he kills 127 out of 147. Stop at 146, and he kills them all.

...and all of this can be found in the new 1-20 adventure path "Against the Commoners."

 

[fuindordm]

1/10 is +2 (on a d20)

I mean the total chance of hitting is about 1/10 (39/400) if you need a 20 but have advantage. Which is like having to roll a 19+ on a single d20, so at that difficulty it only brings you an extra +1.