D&D 5E DMG - breaking bounded accuracy already?

[CapnZapp]

What this discussion tells me is:

If you like how kobolds can still hit high-level characters, don't hand out many items with pluses.

If you dislike how kobolds can still hit high-level characters, hand out many items with pluses.

To me, it appears the complainers and detractors have no case. Or more specifically, their complaint is a paper construction that's easily fixed by how you as the DM hands out magic items.

Don't complain bounded accuracy is broken and hand out +3 plate and +3 shields.

Don't complain how high-level heroes can be taken down by village farmers; instead hand out +3 plate and +3 shields.

To me, this discussion proves 5e is well on its way to both having the cake and eating it at the same time... since both kinds of D&D players can have it their way

The only group left out is the ones that like to complain about how broken bounded accuracy is in specific (and highly theoretical) cases which assume players can hand-pick exactly those magic items that push against the game's limits the most...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I opened my MM to a random page, then flipped back and forth a bit until I found a middle of the road monster... the horned devil CR11 so in theory I could throw this at any level party (I say in theory because I doubt 10 1st level PCs would enjoy this encounter) so lets look at relevant stats...

Armor Class 18 (natural armor) Hit Points 178 (17d10 + 55) STR 22 (+6) DEX 17 (+3) CON 21 (+5)
INT 12 (+1) WIS 16 (+3) CHA 17 (+3)

Saving Throws Str +10, Dex +7, Wis +7, Cha +7

Damage Resistances cold; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons that aren't silvered Damage Immunities fire, poison
Condition Immunities poisoned

Challenge 11 (7,200 XP)

Magic Resistance. The devil has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The devil makes three melee attacks: two with its fork and one with its tail. It can use Hurl Flame in place of any melee attack.

Fork. +10 to hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage

Tail. + 10 to hit: 10 (1d8 + 6) piercing damage

Hurl Flame. +7 to hit: 14 (4d6) fire damage

so a 1st level PC with a 14+ dex and a chain shirt has a 15 AC, 17 if he uses a shield...
a 20th level character with a non supercharged AC has a 23-27, with super everything could hit 32...

a 1st level PC with a 16 attack stat and non magic weapon has a +4 to hit...
a 20th level character has a range to hit from 11-20 average around +14

so look at this CR 11, he hits a starting PC 75% of the time on average, and hits a non super d 20th level character 25% of the time, and needs a nat 20 to hit the best defense you can get ever in the game...

A pc at 1st level needs to roll a 14 to hit, one at 20th could be auto hit but moost likely is closer to that 75% hit ratio it had on him at 1st...

 

[aramis erak]

what are the 'bounds'? in 2e it was a 20pt spread most of the time with 5 or 6 exceptions that made it a 22pt spread... AC10 is the worst, and -10 was supposed to be the best but there were a couple -11 and 1 or 2 -12 ACs... Also to hit where lower, thac0 20-1 and bonuses to that ranged for neg mods to +15ish at max (+5 magic +3 mastery and +7 from str 24 if I remember right)

in 5e it is 14pts for monsters (I haven't seen any lower then 10, or higher then 24 but I also don't have tiamat stats) in this thread we have seen a 32 AC touted. and the best PC hit looks to me to be +18(+3 magic, +6 prof, +9 29 str)

I honestly think they were too conservative with bounded accuracy, but at the end of the day I don't think you can say it doesn't exsist.

lets look at the 2 es in between, in 3e there were 45 ACs, in 4e I think the same... in 4e you added 1/2 level so from +0-+15, could have +6 magic items... I mean just that no dex/int mod (witch I don't think default could happen 2 stats with no mod at 30th level) you would have a 31 AC in a magic tee shirt...


we have seen what the best AC in 5e can look like (32ish) but what do you think the average is at high level? I bet most people don't run into magic plate ever... and don't get +3 armor AND +3 shield, let alone that AND a defender... so what is a good AC most players will see? 27?

lets take a rogue with 20 Dex, and +3 studded leather, and another magic boost some how (ring cloak, what ever) 22, and that seems like it is resnoble...

lets take a fighter type without 'perfect storm items':

+1 plate, +1 shield, +1 ring... 23?

a wizard with my homebrew greater mage armor (3rd level spell set AC to 10+int mod+1 per spell level above 4th used) in a 9th level slot with a 22 INt (thanks to a book) has a 21 AC +1 ring makes it a 22... and spell masteyr shield says I can every round use my reaction to give +4... he could get up to 26.

yea game seems pretty bound to me

Dex 20 Con 20 Barbarian ...
Naked AC is 20... and he can add a shield to that. AC22. At 20th level, he can go to Con 24, and push that to AC 24...

Or Dex 20 Wis 20 Monk. Also AC 20. Can be done by 12th level if the atts were picked right using point build, or were rolled. Not proficient in shields...

Withut magic, normal AC by armor
Dex 20+, studded, shield: AC 19
Dex 14+, Chain, Shield: AC 19
Dex 16+, Chain, Shield, Medium Armor Master: AC 20.
Dex any, Plate, Shield: AC 20
Defensive fighting style adds +1
Defensive Duelist adds PB to AC vs one attack per round...

So, flat out, the hardest non-magic PC's AC is 27, and is only 21 vs other attacks... and can be a fighter in chain & shield with the defensive duelist and medium armor master feats. Many low CR monsters are going to hit on nat 17+ or better.

 

[Quartz]

And don't forget Advantage. If a PC is being mobbed, half the attackers can give up their attacks to grant the other half Advantage, so the low-CR monster that normally hits on a 17+ is going to hit on a 13+.

 

[Paraxis]

And don't forget Advantage. If a PC is being mobbed, half the attackers can give up their attacks to grant the other half Advantage, so the low-CR monster that normally hits on a 17+ is going to hit on a 13+.

No not at all. If your AC is so high that your opponent needs a 17 or higher to hit you having advantage doesn't change that fact, it just increases the odds of getting the 17 or higher.

Normally if you need a 17 then than that is 20% chance of success, if you have advantage it goes up to 36%.
If you needed a 13 it would a 40% chance of success.

Advantage only helps so far, and once AC is so high that the opponent needs a 20, having advantage only increases your odds of success to 9.75% up from 5%.

Don't forget that with your crazy high AC you could throw on a cloak of displacement giving all your opponents disadvantage on their attacks.

 

[ingeloak]

When I was 12, I was in the game where the DM gave our 2nd level paladin a holy sword, my fighter a rod of lordly might, and our thief a ring of 2 wishes. Clearly, AD&D is a broken unplayable game.

haha. playing this when youre a kid is all about the fantastic and totally overpowered magic items. when i was a kid, my friend gave his character and mine a magically weightless longsword that had a fireball ruby in the pommel, was +5 to hit and damage, and did D20 damage. nevermind the fact i was a wizard and he a cleric

 

[Timotheos55000]

For those of you who have problems with BA, I'd ask you how you would have solved the problem yourself. As someone who has a very little bit of experience in game design I know that often the mechanics and game systems you create do not always work as you have intended or even as you would like, even less so if you have a deadline on a final product you have to meet.

Now, it seems to me that the core complaint here, and a lot of complaints about 5th edition in general, is that the DM is encouraged to take more control and decide more with mechanics in the games they run. And that is what the DMG is created for. It supplies the DM with the options that are necessary for DM to create and manage a world of their own design. Yes, bounded accuracy can be broken if someone is populating a game world with material presented in the DMG and not using the various officially designed adventure paths, but so can any game that you can sandbox a creative mode.

My D&D experience is admittedly limited, but between the two systems I have experience in (3.5 and 5E), 5th edition is far easier and more inviting as a new DM as opposed to the complexity of 3.5. The argument of "its a bad design because it requires the DM to judge a ruling" is a bit unfounded in my opinion. As someone who is fresh and new to DMing, I need to be able to read into those rulings and decide what makes sense to me for me to run MY campaign in a world that I create. I see the magic items there in the DMG as guidelines for things that I might wish to create and use to populate my world with.

 

[airwalkrr]

This whole thread is the definition of flame bait.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This whole thread is the definition of flame bait.

not as bad as necroing it 2 weeks later is.

 

[airwalkrr]

not as bad as necroing it 2 weeks later is.

Burn accepted...

It showed up on the sidebar of my screen as a "hot topic." Apparently the algorithm which selected it did not account for age.