Do automatic hit abilities kill minions?

[Mistwell]

I think that at this point it's probably easier to ignore "any amount or from any source destroys a minion", and simply look at what the statblock says:

HP 1; a missed attack can't damage a minion

In this way the temp hp rules are coherent with the normal monsters, minions still work the same way as before and there are no silly implications about non-damage.

Am i missing something?

I think either of two options is reasonable:

1) Ignore the "Ask Wizards" answer and go with the RAW DMG Minion clause, where any damage from a non-miss kills the minion, regardless of temporary hit points.

2) Ignore the RAW DMG Minion clause and go with the "Ask Wizards" answer (which is the answer you proposed as well), where you have to reduce temporary hit points to zero as well as their real hit points before the minion dies.

I suspect either option will work fine with most games. Number 2 slightly increases the power of minions, particularly if they have a leader in their group that grants temporary hit points to allies (which is not that uncommon). This will reduce the power of some class-types like the Controller, since many of their powers are intended to do very little damage but auto-kill minions. But, I still do not think option 2 would harm a game that much.

Personally, I am going with option 1.

 

[Fede]

I agree, and i think that we have reached the point where, because the rules are in conflict with each other and there are 2 possible interpretations, each DM has to chose what's best for his personal game.
Personally, i found the minions to be weaker than i'd like, so i'm going with option 2 (as i said before).

 

[James McMurray]

That and it complicates minions, who were built to be 100% uncomplicated.

Luckily it only complicates them if the GM chooses to complicate them, since he is entirely in control of when monsters apply temporary hit points to one another.

 

[Ottergame]

Luckily it only complicates them if the GM chooses to complicate them, since he is entirely in control of when monsters apply temporary hit points to one another.

On the other hand, then, it's entirely up to the DM to decide how tough a monster is, by weather or not they use their powers to attack players, thereby ignoring the rules and theme by just doing whatever.

 

[Rartemass]

Look at the Kobold Wyrmpriest's Incite Faith ability (MM pg 168).

"Close burst 10; kobold allies in the burst gain 5 temporary hit points and shift 1 square."

Then also look at the tactics on the same page

"A wyrmpriest keeps lots of kobold underlings between it and its enemies, using incite faith to embolden them"

If giving minions temporary hit points doesn't save them from a single point of damage, then what is the point of the above ability and tactic?


I used this exact scenario with a wyrmpriest inciting his 10 minions. Even with the extra hit points, 70% died with a single hit.

I personally go with the temp hit points help a minion.

When making rulings as a GM I take the following into account:
-Every core rule can be bent or broken by a specific power or ability. This is much like in Magic: The Gathering. The core combat system is in place and it is the way things work by default. Abilities make exceptions, additions, or blatant opposition to the default rules.
-Turn the tables on the PCs. If the monster was a PC, would you expect the ability to work one way or the other. Even though monsters are generally there to be killed, I think of them as a natural part of the world and they have their own agendas, life goals, plans etc. They had lives before the PCs arrived, and if they survive will go back to them. Monsters are people too
-Does it make the game more enjoyable? If interpreting the rule one way reduces the enjoyment of the game, then don't use it that way.

 

[Mistwell]

Look at the Kobold Wyrmpriest's Incite Faith ability (MM pg 168).

"Close burst 10; kobold allies in the burst gain 5 temporary hit points and shift 1 square."

Then also look at the tactics on the same page

"A wyrmpriest keeps lots of kobold underlings between it and its enemies, using incite faith to embolden them"

If giving minions temporary hit points doesn't save them from a single point of damage, then what is the point of the above ability and tactic?

You seem to be reading the word "underlings" to mean "minions". I don't. The wyrmpriest in the Irontooth encounter, for example, enters the battle with non-minions, leaving the minions to the first wave when he is not there to bolster them. An underling is just a lower-down kobold in whatever hierarchy that kobold group is using.

-Turn the tables on the PCs. If the monster was a PC, would you expect the ability to work one way or the other. Even though monsters are generally there to be killed, I think of them as a natural part of the world and they have their own agendas, life goals, plans etc. They had lives before the PCs arrived, and if they survive will go back to them. Monsters are people too
-Does it make the game more enjoyable? If interpreting the rule one way reduces the enjoyment of the game, then don't use it that way.

Minions are a concept that is not available to the PCs. You have made a ruling that ONLY can benefit foes of the PCs. I do not think that ruling is unreasonable, but this issue seems to prove the opposite of your point.

 

[Rartemass]

You seem to be reading the word "underlings" to mean "minions". I don't. The wyrmpriest in the Irontooth encounter, for example, enters the battle with non-minions, leaving the minions to the first wave when he is not there to bolster them. An underling is just a lower-down kobold in whatever hierarchy that kobold group is using.


Minions are a concept that is not available to the PCs. You have made a ruling that ONLY can benefit foes of the PCs. I do not think that ruling is unreasonable, but this issue seems to prove the opposite of your point.

I know that underlings are pretty much every other kobold. I just used that example to illustrate. It would help other kobolds that aren't minions, but that is not the point of this discussion. It would make sense that a wyrmpriest uses his minions as cannon fodder and the longer they stay alive the longer it takes for the PCs to reach him.

Again I understand that minions are not currently a PC option; but could be used in the future for followers.
I also made those comments about my ruling process in general, not just for this issue. Some things can't be turned back on the PCs, in those cases I ignore that part of my process.

 

[LittleFuzzy]

Minions are a concept that is not available to the PCs. You have made a ruling that ONLY can benefit foes of the PCs. I do not think that ruling is unreasonable, but this issue seems to prove the opposite of your point.

Oh? Minions seem like a great way to implement PC hirelings.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Minions don't ever get temp hit points, been said before, and makes sense.
4th ed is about KISS
Keep It Simple, Stupid! (and damn, do I feel stupid DMing 3.5 ed, lol, OMG, the pain of tracking all that crap!)

Tracking hit points on minions = BAD! So just ignore it. Minions only ever have 1 hp.
Effects that give them attack, AC, resist bonuses are fine, as it applies to the group, no need to keep seperate tracing...which is what made 3.5ed a nightmare for many DMs.

 

[James McMurray]

On the other hand, then, it's entirely up to the DM to decide how tough a monster is, by weather or not they use their powers to attack players, thereby ignoring the rules and theme by just doing whatever.

Has there ever been any doubt about this? I guess I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

What I'm saying is that yes, this rule "complicates" minions. I use the quotes because it's a highly subjective word in that it adds complexity, but whether tracking 6 hit points is actually complicated is up to the DM. However, since it only ever happens if the DM decides it should happen, its completely up to the DM to determine exactly how much this complicates his game. If he doesn't like it, he's free to never use it without ever having to put a house rule into place.