Do Bards still suck?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just read the Inspire Courage Optimization thread. Or look at the Sublime Chord prestige class. Bards could get very very nasty with supplements.

Even in core only, it's by default the 5th most powerful class just by virtue of being the 5th most powerful spellcaster.

 

[Victim]

Bardic Music
- Starting a bardic performance goes from Standard -> Move at 7th, and Move -> Swift at 13th.
- Maintaining a bardic performance went from Standard action (3.5e) to Free action (Pathfinder core, 1st level).
- Also, while doing a bardic performance, you can do whatever you want (including cast spells, etc). It's not "concentration" based, it's only stopped when you are pretty much prevented from making a free action.

This set of benefits means you can use your bardic performances while doing other actions, like attacking, casting spells, using skills, whatever.
Yes, give everyone the group buff but not be stuck "only buffing".

You could always fight while doing bardic music.

Personally, I don't think the ability to start bardic music as a swift action in the middle of a fight competes favorably with the ability to start bardic music as a standard action outside of combat and then maintain over a series of encounters (even if you don't maintain it all day...).

Add in the fact that 3.5 supplemental material for bards seems better than UM and APG (especially for Inspire Courage), and I think that the PF bard is weaker than the 3.5 one.

 

[tylermalan]

Yeah - uh guys? how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?

I don't think they were accusing you of this...

 

[Crothian]

Yeah - uh guys? how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?

I have no idea how or what you and your friends play. I do know that in many bard threads people describe the bard as weak because they can't do well as a front line fighter or as a damage causing caster. We've had threads on the bard for over a decade now and many posters do try to make the bard into something it is not. Bards are not always the best class to take in the dungeon. But in my city campaign bards have really shown to be effective. They can get very subtle with their spell casting and enchantments can be used very effectively on many different NPCs. They have the skills and versatility to be able to handle many situations.

 

[IronWolf]

The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.

But for the OP's question? I'll echo Crothian: if you think Bards suck then it's because you wanted to play something else anyway.

Yeah - uh guys? how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?

These were very valid comments as Crothian has further clarified.

You asked 'Do bards still suck?' and a good portion of that question depends on what your expectations of a bard are. The bard is an easy class to find yourself trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you find yourself doing that with your bard then you are apt to be unhappy with them. If you play to their strengths and flexibility then you are not likely to find that bards suck.

It does not appear either poster was accusing you of doing that - merely stating that they see this as a frequent issue with the bard.

 

[paradox42]

It does not appear either poster was accusing you of doing that - merely stating that they see this as a frequent issue with the bard.

I certainly was. Really, in any campaign featuring any social interaction at all, I'd much rather have a Bard in the party (most times) than a Rogue. Bards as the "party face" are scary good. Seriously, in 3.5 one of my players- the one who is least interested in statistics and character optimization- made a Bard who had a Diplomacy modifier in the mid-20s at 8th level. He did this without even trying hard. Now, PF Bards lost some options, but the skill consolidation if anything makes them even more effective this way than the class was in 3.5. As far as I can tell they still rock on toast when it comes to any social interaction at all.

So: need to sell that loot? The Bard will get you the best price. Need to find that one special scroll? The Bard will take you to the seller (and convince him to give you a discount), or let you know unequivocally that there isn't one to be found. Need to talk your way past those guards so as to not make noise and draw lots of other guards onto you? Let the Bard smooth your way. Sure, he can't find traps like a Rogue could, but if you can hire an NPC trapfinder at reasonable rates, why care about that? And how often are you really in a situation where traps are likely, anyway?

I ran two campaigns during most of my time DM'ing 3.X, and for several years one campaign had a Bard (the one I mentioned above) while the other had no real "party face" at all. After a couple of years, the differences between the parties was striking and unmistakeable- the Bard-equipped party had plenty of good equipment, mostly the best possible stuff that they could get, and plenty of cash stashed in the party Portable Hole to get more with when they needed to. The other party had taken a lot longer to acquire a party Portable Hole, had substandard equipment for their level, and were notably resource-poor. And the difference was very clearly due to the second party not having a "face," because shortly after one player retired his old character and made a new one that was designed (among other things) to act as a "face," the second party quickly started to improve their situation. The moral I took: it isn't a spectacular role, but being able to find the right deals (and jobs) and get the best prices in a town or city is vital to an average adventuring party. And Bards do it better than anybody else.

So yes, it's campaign-dependent to a degree, but Bards definitely do not suck (and never really did IMO).

 

[tylermalan]

I certainly was.

Oh, well... rage on, then!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't get people saying bards suck in melee and saying they're for social interaction. Even core only, a level 20 Bard's Inspire Courage is giving the same attack and damage bonus a level 20 Barbarian is getting, except shared with the entire party and with none of the drawbacks. A core bard 20 using a longspear or a longsword two-handed with power attack is doing +12 damage in 3E; +16 damage in PF.

And he's doing it Blurred, Invisible, Mirror Image'd, hasted, blinking, and/or displaced. That is when he isn't throwing down dominate person, glitterdust, pyrotechnics, grease, and the like.

 

[Voadam]

The bard in my PF game was pretty disappointed. Modest improvements from 3.5.

Still a great roleplay concept class, still good at skills, still good at out of combat stuff, still a decent buff to the party in combat, and still fairly weak at personally fighting with some modest improvements.

I keep being tempted to house rule them to two options: either full sorcerer spell casting with the bard list instead of bard 6th level limits for the fey sonomancer style (like that enchantment and illusion class from PHII), or full BAB or trailblazer style phantom full base attack bonus for the viking skald or swashbuckler style character.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards - Pathfinder_OGC

Wow - what a great resource! Well thought out and written!

Bards got TONS of love in Pathfinder.

1) Bardic Music is much better. It is now a free action to maintain, so a Bard can inspire courage while attacking or casting spells. By 7th level it's a move action to initiate which means you can inspire and cast a spell right on round 1.

2) Skills are much better. Bardic Knowledge now covers every knowledge skill, and Versatile Performance adds more yet. A Bard out skills every other class in the game now, even rogues, by a longshot.

3) Spells. Spellcasting is the most powerful ability in the game, and now Bard's get higher level spells earlier. They now get 1st level spells right at level 1 (with more known spells than a sorcerer)

More too...really, just read the rules. This is all core alone. APG opens a whole new world on top.