Do Bards still suck?

[Holy Bovine]

So I have the PF rulebook and have been reading over the changes to the classes mainly and trying to digest and judge those changes. Many of the classes got significant overhauls & power boosts (Paladin and Barbarian) while some remained untouched (Wizard). The one thing that jumped out at me was that Bards seem to be much the same as they always were. That's a little disappointing to me. I was hoping to see an overhaul of this class on the order of the Rogue (who needed little) or even Sorcerer (bloodlines are a little bookkeepy but seem worth it). What am I missing? The bardic music still seems to boil down to the Bluff, bluff the stupid Ogre thing and their high level powers were something of a joke (cause fear at 14th level? Ugh. mass cure serious wounds with a 4 round 'casting' time?!).

So what am I missing? Do bards rock on toast as the party buffer during actual play? Any significant changes to their spells or spell lists? I'm likely starting a PF game in the near future and want to know if I should just warn people away from the bard as usual (believe me - 3 attempts to play 3.0 & 3.5 bards have all met with failure with unhappy, overhsadowed players feeling useless to the success of the group)

 

[Retreater]

My experience is yes, they still suck.

 

[Systole]

Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards - Pathfinder_OGC

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wizard got buffed, Barbarian was nerfed.

Bards...are about where they were in 3E. They're definitely not the WORST class (Monk and Rogue well surpass them there), but at the same time, a few classes that were inferior to them in 3E got some nice buffs (Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger), so their ranking on the totem pole slipped a bit, you could say.

They gained more spells per day, eventual swift action bardic performance activation, and the ability to tie a whole lot of skill checks into a handful of perform skills, all helpful. Unfortunately, their bardic music duration was MASSIVELY cut, now you only get a handful of rounds per day. Which makes a lot of non-combat songs practically worthless and restricts their buffing power a tad even in combat. Ultimately, the biggest loss a PF Bard faces is losing all the massive amounts of love they got in 3E splat books (IMO, they got more than anyone except maybe sorcerer). In a PF-only game, you can't optimize your inspire courage to +14 or whatever nor turn it into +Xd6 sonic damage, you can't snowflake wardance, and you can't go sublime chord for 9th level spell casting in armor with awesome skill points.

To put it more simply...if by "suck" you mean decent at everything but great at nothing...then yeah, they still suck. But they at least get a bunch of spells per day to win a combat with a save-or-lose*. Rogue and Monk get to be mediocre at most things and not get redeeming qualities.


*I'm being tongue-in-cheek, I don't actually think winning a combat on a single action is the sole defining characteristic of being useful. Please don't flame me.

EDIT: The title actually confuses me... Bards were the 5th best of the core classes in 3E, right after Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer.

 

[Thazar]

Bards got a lot of love in the APG. They are really much better then they were in 3E. That is probably in no small part due to James Jacobs is a fan of the class (based upon my impression of his comments and posts) so it gets lots of attention in the in house playtests.

 

[Jadeite]

Bards were a pretty solid class in 3.5. With the changes to Inspire Courage, I'd say they still are a pretty solid class in Pathfinder.

 

[Summer-Knight925]

Playing a bard is always fun, if you want to play a crafty character that is

some people like the straight up fighter
some like the wizard
some say they're crafty and play rogue

play a bard, lie to your party, steal the loot, write a song about it.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

In my estimation the bard has not sucked since 3.5, though they are, perhaps, one of the more challenging classes to play.

They are probably my third favorite, after wizard and paladin, though the PF sorcerer is close.

They are also, in my opinion the best 'fifth class' - that is after the party already has a wizard/sorcerer, fighter/paladin/barbarian, cleric/druid, and rogue. Being able to boost a full party comes in awfully handy.

The Auld Grump

 

[Kaisoku]

Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:

Alignment Restrictions removed. No Ex-Bards.

Bardic Music
- Starting a bardic performance goes from Standard -> Move at 7th, and Move -> Swift at 13th.
- Maintaining a bardic performance went from Standard action (3.5e) to Free action (Pathfinder core, 1st level).
- Also, while doing a bardic performance, you can do whatever you want (including cast spells, etc). It's not "concentration" based, it's only stopped when you are pretty much prevented from making a free action.

This set of benefits means you can use your bardic performances while doing other actions, like attacking, casting spells, using skills, whatever.
Yes, give everyone the group buff but not be stuck "only buffing".

You lose overall time of usage (and unfortunately out of combat benefits for things like inspire competence), but overall as the bard you can do more.

Bardic Music (continued)
- End cap "Deadly Performance" for a save-or-die (and even a make the save and still suck) effect makes it a pretty decent 20th level effect (if you play to that level).
- Stealth boost: Inspire Courage now gives a +competence bonus to attack and damage rolls, not morale. This means it stacks with the Bard-worthy spells of Heroism (Greater) and Good Hope.

Skills
- Skill consolidation was the first step towards making a 6 + int class even better at doing skill things.
- Versatile Performance is an amazing class feature that basically means that you can get a pile more out of your skillpionts for having invested into multiple perform skills.
Note: The developers on the Paizo boards have outright stated that you shouldn't be inhibited from character development from a class ability, so ranks that you put into a skill skill that is later covered by Versatile Performance could be reassigned (similar to how Int bonuses give skillpoints retroactively now too).
- Lore Master and Jack of all Trades are not really amazing (unless your group tends to go heavy into Knowledge skills for Lore Master). Jack of all Trades feels a bit low-benefit for the levels you get them at (not really a high level perk all things considered, but hey.. it's added on top of everything else).

Overall, they feel like a better skills class than the Ranger or Rogue (short of a couple quirks like tracking or stealth while on the move).
If you place any value on skills in your game, then the Bard got a serious improvement in this area (I know some people feel skills are completely replaceable with magic, so I guess YMMV).

Spells
- The APG granted the Bard a fairly extensive set of utility options for their spells. A lot of "mess with people" effects, and bypassing resistances and immunities (like bypassing DR or hitting incorporeal creatures).
The Finale line of spells give some neat buffing/saving options with the condition of being in the middle of using bardic performance. Allow an ally to reroll a save (like the fighter who just got dominated/etc).
- I haven't checked out Ultimate Magic much yet, but I hear it has some decent offensive options in there.

General Stuff
- If you don't like some of the bardic performance options, then the archetypes typically have at least a couple replacements. I like the Arcane Duelist and Sandman options from the APG.
- I haven't checked out Ultimate Magic with regards to Bards much, but Masterpieces are supposed to be decent (although the cost might be a bit high). Not sure what the spells and archetypes do for the class there yet.
- I believe Ultimate Combat has feats to expand use for the Whip, and on top of that, includes an archetype of Archeologist.
This, to me, pushed the class up a notch on the fun factor, regardless of how the class archetype even plays out. Being able to play Indiana Jones? Yes please!


I feel that the "can do bardic performance while attacking and spellcasting, while inspire courage stacks better" that really puts the Bard head and shoulders better than it was in 3.5e. The skill mastery stuff is just gravy on top of that.
And that's the core Bard, without even getting into some crazy archetype or spell combination.

Although there is a thread about using Beguiling Gift (force someone to use an item you hand them) and giving a Druid a metal shield, to force them lose druid powers for 24 hours.
Granted, a Will save-based spell here isn't the best of ideas, but it still makes me chuckle at the thought of that combination.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Bards could maintain inspire as a free action in 3.5, too. It was only songs that required concentration ot maintain, like Fascinate and Suggestion, that cost you your action each round.

"Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit."

You couldn't cast spells (feats or Harmoizing weapon fixed that) or use a bunch of magic items. But you could absolutely fight while performing after starting it.