D&D 5E Do you allow Bladesingers to cast Mending, Shillelagh or Magic Stone as part of the attack action?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I admit I do not follow your arguments about specificity. The bladesinger feature seems to me to be the specific rule that supercedes the general rules around casting times for cantrips. I get that you don't see it that way. I just can't figure out why that is.
We know from the devs that for specific to beat general, it has to very explicitly say something. You can't infer it like you guys are doing from "your cantrips." In order to override the 1 minute casting time, the ability has to explicitly says it overrides that spell's casting time.

That specificity is how we get Crawford's Sage Advice answers telling us that the See Invisibility spell doesn't allow people to see invisible things. The text of the spell doesn't explicitly say it does, so Crawford says it's like the Predator where you can see there's something invisible there, but you can't see it so you still have the miss chance associated with being invisible.
I enjoy bantering about the logical inconsistencies of rules, though, so this hasn't been a total loss. :)
Agreed!! :)
 

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ECMO3

Legend
You can't infer it like you guys are doing from "your cantrips." In order to override the 1 minute casting time, the ability has to explicitly says it overrides that spell's casting time.
It does. It says explicitly you can cast it as an attack!

This is what you are refusing to admit- no cantrip, of any type, anywhere has a casting time of one attack! NONE of them!
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It does. It says explicitly you can cast it as an attack!
Show me the language that says, "This ability allows you to cast Mending as an attack." Because that's the level of specificity the devs have said 5e requires for specific to beat general.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Absolutley, because you are not using an action to cast it. You are using an attack which is half of an action for that character.
That's.................................ludicrous. 1 action does not override 1 action. That's like saying that a 1 cup measuring cup overrides 1 cup of water because they are different things, instead of one being contained by the other because both are 1 cup. You are also arguing that a 1 cup container(1 action) can hold 10 cups of water(1 minute casting time), without explicit language stating so.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
There's another interpretation of this "casting time" conundrum. The cantrip replaces one of your attacks, but nowhere does it say that the casting time changes to a single action.

Round 1
Player: I make one attack with my rapier, and use my other attack to cast mending.
DM: Remember, mending has a casting time of one minute.
Player: Yep, that's right.

Round 2
Player: Okay, I make two attacks with my rapier.
DM: Remember, you're still casting mending. Do you wish to abandon that spell?
Player: Shoot, I forgot. I'll make one attack, and use my other attack to continue casting mending.
Would this mean that a Bladesinger using a bonus action cantrip as part of their attack is now locked out from casting any leveled spells with their actual bonus action?

I'm inclined to say no, as the rule states: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.". Since you're not using a bonus action to cast the cantrip as part of your attack, it seems like this should supersede that rule.

But if you're not using a standard action, bonus action, reaction, or anything else to cast this spell when you make an attack, it seems odd to argue about the casting time of the spell. The bladesinger casts the cantrip as part of their attack action. This replaces the normal casting time of the cantrip because it has to in order to function. If the normal casting time of the cantrip is replaced, then it shouldn't matter what the normal casting time is, unless the ability itself tells us it does. We shouldn't have to go looking for "hidden rules" about "standard cantrip rules" (as Maxperson insists).

As I see it, as written, the Bladesinger's ability doesn't function because it doesn't grant any specific ability to do so. For example, if it said: "when you take the attack action, you can replace one of your attacks with a spellcasting (or to use the playtest parlance, a magic) action to cast a cantrip", we would know exactly how the rules interact with this ability.

It doesn't do that. Of course, we all know it's supposed to work, so we ignore any reading that says it doesn't work. But from this point on, it's all rulings, as we don't know what the intent was. A ruling that it is a spellcasting action, subject to all the restrictions thereby, or that it lets you cast the spell, waiving the normal action rules for doing so, are both equally valid.

However, Occam's Razor would suggest that the former ruling is likely the intended one, not the latter, so it's an acceptable ruling, but still, a ruling, not a rule. Because the rule is incomplete.

Here's a ludicrous analogy to my point.

The Pieslinger Subclass gains the ability, "when the Pieslinger takes the attack action, they throw a pie." What kind of pie? Do I need to furnish the pie, or does it just appear out of thin air? Do I need a free hand to throw the pie? Is this ability subject to the normal rules for throwing pies? Am I allowed to throw custard pies, even though the rules for pie throwing say "you cannot throw custard pies"? Can I throw cheesecake, even though my local Baker's Square insisted for decades that cheesecake is not a pie?.
 

TheSword

Legend
It does take a long time to come online, 8 levels with a variant human or 10 levels with another race (getting agonizing blast as well).

When it does come online it is wicked powerful though because of how Eldritch Blast scales with level. at 10th level it is 2d6+2d10+20+5xCharisma. That is before Hex or any other riders. It adds a 3rd blast at level 11.

You also
That’s going to average at 54 damage at level 10 if every single attack hits (which with sharpshooter it’s by no means certain). It’s good no doubt about it. But feels on par with many other good characters.

Is it better than a ranger archer with sharpshooter and horde breaker or a dex based pure fighter with crossbow expert and sharpshooter doing 3 full sharp shooter attacks. It feels like crossbow expert and sharpshooter are what makes this build powerful not getting to add a cantrip into it in place of a sharpshooter attack.

I’ll be honest, being able to deal large amounts of damage at high levels isn’t my nightmare scenario. It speeds up the players removing those massive bags of hp. I think I’d be glad of a few characters like this sometimes so I can get fights over with!
 

I'll say. I'm struggling to imagine any kind of situation where there's an urgent need to cast mending a half-dozen times in the middle of combat, and it cannot wait sixty seconds, and I absolutely must do it while also swinging a sword. All I'm coming up with are weird exploits involving a custom creature/sidekick that can be "healed" with a mending spell, or a player trying to ignore the special abilities of rust monsters and certain oozes.
Such a sidekick exists; the Battlesmith's Steel Defender can be healed for 2d6 HP with Mending.
 


Heh. That's some serious dedication to a rules exploit. I'd have to endure nine levels of a sub-optimal multiclass combo, only to be met with snickers from my fellow players and a "sorry, you can't do that" from my DM. :ROFLMAO:
It could be good as a party tactic. The Battlesmith can hang back and shoot while the Bladesinger and Steel Defender hold the front line. But even if the DM lets it work, 2d6 healing per round isn't all that much, it's probably more effective for the Bladesinger to cast Green Flame Blade.
 

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