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D&D 5E Do you let PC's just *break* objects?

pemerton

Legend
No one is trying to emulate the play of people from 40-50 years ago. They are trying to emulate what their character would do in an unfamiliar situation. The reality is that all of us bring knowledge of the world and varying degrees of knowledge about the game, so we are always navigating the question "what makes sense for this character to do in this situation?" Acting, in other words. What I ask of my players is to try to immerse themselves in the story, to see it through the eyes of this person that they have created.

I know the rules of this game inside and out (I mean, there are folks on this forum who put my knowledge to shame, but compared to the median, I'm pretty expert). So if I play, I pretty much have to put a ton of that knowledge on hold if I am going to act in character

<snip>

Edit: in writing class, a question I always come back to with students is "what makes sense for this character in this situation?" That's my basic premise for my TTRPG characters, as well.
What @Charlaquin said in reply to you - "what @pemerton is getting at is that playing in situations that the players are familiar with seems like a strange way to go about trying to accomplish this goal" - is right.

I can elaborate a little bit: when playing Burning Wheel, I don't have to suspend or "put on hold" any knowledge I have of the game rules, in order to play my character. (As a player. As a GM it's different, as I'll explain a bit below.) When I declare actions, knowing how the game rules for building dice pools work doesn't make it harder to play my character - it makes it easier, as I can more easily see how thinking about what my PC is trying to do (eg persuade my brother to turn away from the easy but shameful path he's taken) correlates with doing some stuff at the table (building a dice pool that has Command skill at its core). When playing out a melee combat using the full Fight! rules (which rely on a reasonably intricate structure of rock-paper-scissors-esque blind declarations), knowing how the rules work doesn't make it harder to play my character: I put my intuitions to work, script my actions, and then compare to what the GM has scripted and roll the appropriate dice.

(As a GM, when scripting combat for my NPCs or creatures I don't just rely on my intuitions. I try and also choose a sequence of actions that emulates or expresses established features of the being I'm scripting for - eg its traits and instincts. In this way, players who are aware of those trait and instincts, whether because they've already seen them manifest in play or (say) they've read them via aura-reading, can factor that knowledge into their own scripting of their blind declarations. But this is a difference between the GM and player roles: the player is advocating for their PC, whereas the GM is not advocating for the characters under their control, but rather trying to present them in a way that is true to their place in the fiction. In Apocalypse World, the analogue to this asymmetry is that the GM is bound by the principles "Make the world seem real" and "Look at your NPCs through crosshairs" but the players are not. In classic D&D the analogue is the asymmetry between the GM being bound by their notes about how NPCs will act, by reaction rolls, etc; whereas players are free to choose their PCs' behaviour as they see fit.)

I've mentioned BW, but my point generalises to most RPGs I know: being experienced makes play more smooth, and thus in some ways more satisfying, and I don't need to suppress my knowledge of how the game works in order to inhabit and portray my character.

The contrast with D&D is that, at least on a certain traditional approach, so much of D&D turns on "hidden knowledge" and related puzzles: monster immunities to damage types; the availability and properties of various spells of greater or less baroque character; the abilities of magic items; etc. When all that stuff was being invented, in the mid-to-late 70s, the knowledge was hidden not only from characters but from players, and as the players learned the knowledge they were expected to get better at the game by using it. This is why Gygax, in his DMG, suggests that new players should play the game with one another rather than with experienced players whose knowledge will dominate in play. (This is consistent with your remark about it "depending on what the players know".)

This is why my view is that, in contemporary D&D play, it makes sense to move beyond the puzzle paradigm (and so approach D&D in a fashion that is much closer to other FRPGs) or to invent new puzzles (which is what some posters in this thread say they do). You describe the latter option as "a lot of extra work" but that's exactly what the original D&D GMs were doing, as they came up with yellow mould and brown mould and shriekers and piercers and green slime and all the rest of it. On the player side, actually puzzling this stuff out was a big part of the point of play.

I'm not entirely clear, but some of what you say - eg playing my character not by asking a first person question "What should I do, given who I am?" but "What should this character do, given given the situation they are in?" - seems to expect the player to adopt the position of the GM that I've described above, no longer advocating for their character but rather (as an actor does) portraying their character according to some external criterion of adequacy. That is a very distinctive approach to RPGing, and one that to me seems at odds with the immersion in character that is (for me) the main pleasure in playing a RPG.
 

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Oofta

Legend
@Clint_L said what the goal is. It’s:

Again, I don’t think it should be the least bit controversial to say that playing in situations that are familiar to the players seems to run counter to that goal. That doesn’t mean people who have that goal can’t or shouldn’t play in situations that are familiar to the players - by all means, follow your bliss! But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out that playing in situations that are unfamiliar to the players might better suit that stated goal.

I'm not Clint, but surely you understand the concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, right? Trying to see the world from someone else's perspective? Because it has nothing to do with the player being ignorant, it's putting yourself in the position of someone that is ignorant of the facts about trolls. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to role play in that fashion. It's akin to method acting role playing.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm not Clint, but surely you understand the concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, right? Trying to see the world from someone else's perspective? Because it has nothing to do with the player being ignorant, it's putting yourself in the position of someone that is ignorant of the facts about trolls. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to role play in that fashion. It's akin to method acting role playing.
It’s kind of ironic that you would point to method acting as the analogy here, since Stanislavsky’s method works by trying to actually reproduce the character’s experiences, or at least the closest analogy you can. I suspect Stanislavsky would be a strong advocate for not allowing players to have access to information their characters wouldn’t have, were he to try to apply his method to RPGs.
 

greg kaye

Explorer
I like the Pathfinder 2e system by which characters can recall knowledge.
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5e characters can do similar with things like history checks.
Many characters within a world will be familiar with that world.
 
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Clint_L

Legend
@Clint_L said what the goal is. It’s:

Again, I don’t think it should be the least bit controversial to say that playing in situations that are familiar to the players seems to run counter to that goal. That doesn’t mean people who have that goal can’t or shouldn’t play in situations that are familiar to the players - by all means, follow your bliss! But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to point out that playing in situations that are unfamiliar to the players might better suit that stated goal.
Well, sure. But a lot of storytelling is going to cover some familiar ground, particularly within one game or genre. All I am saying is that when that happens, I still try to stay in character. As a storyteller, I am focused on character beats, not on spending my time trying to make sure every challenge is completely novel to every player. It's a cooperative game - if a player happens to be familiar with something their character obviously would not, how hard is it for them to act from the character's perspective?

And this is a two way street. The GM is typically expected to have their creatures and NPCs act as if in ignorance of the player characters' strengths, weaknesses, plans, etc. When running a game, aren't you often asking yourself "what would this creature/NPC do in this particular situation, with the information they have?" I think my players would be justifiably annoyed if I had the mob of zombies suddenly spread out as much as possible because I know the wizard character is packing fireball.

Edit: and I completely disagree with Gygax's argument that experienced and inexperienced players shouldn't mix. All that is required for it to work is that the experienced players be considerate. My school campaigns routinely mix players who are brand new with players who have memorized the PHB, and it works fine as long as you set up an expectation that each player be allowed to do their own thing.
 
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Oofta

Legend
It’s kind of ironic that you would point to method acting as the analogy here, since Stanislavsky’s method works by trying to actually reproduce the character’s experiences, or at least the closest analogy you can. I suspect Stanislavsky would be a strong advocate for not allowing players to have access to information their characters wouldn’t have, were he to try to apply his method to RPGs.
Huh? I'm talking about not acting on knowledge that I as a player know that I do not think my PC would. I fail to see any irony here.
 

Clint_L

Legend
Smart characters quickly commission folding or telescoping poles that are 10' long at full extension but most of the time are much shorter, for ease of packing.

Even smarter characters put something sharp on one end of the pole, allowing it to do double duty as a makeshift reach weapon when not in use as a trap-finder.
I think someone walking around a confined space managing a 10' pole would be much more likely to blunder into a trap, not less.

Plus...it's just a goofy trope. Imagine the Mines of Moria, if the first thing the Fellowship did was get out a 10' pole before cautiously making their way ahead, probing gently as they went. Or the D&D movie, for that matter.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Well, sure. But a lot of storytelling is going to cover some familiar ground, particularly within one game or genre. All I am saying is that when that happens, I still try to stay in character. As a storyteller, I am focused on character beats, not on spending my time trying to make sure every challenge is completely novel to every player. It's a cooperative game - if a player happens to be familiar with something their character obviously would not, how hard is it for them to act from the character's perspective?
There's really nothing "obvious" about that though and it's not "would" but "might" since it's easy to justify why a character might know something, or at least think something to be true (even if they don't know for sure). Just make up a justification you can live with. And that leaves out the fact that taking a given action needn't necessarily rely on knowing anything particular at all. I don't need to know a troll is vulnerable to fire to lob a firebolt at it, do I?

And this is a two way street. The GM is typically expected to have their creatures and NPCs act as if in ignorance of the player characters' strengths, weaknesses, plans, etc. When running a game, aren't you often asking yourself "what would this creature/NPC do in this particular situation, with the information they have?" I think my players would be justifiably annoyed if I had the mob of zombies suddenly spread out as much as possible because I know the wizard character is packing fireball.
I don't ask myself that, or at least it's long down the list of other more important considerations since, again, I can justify anything. I choose whatever's going to be fun for everyone and help us create an exciting, memorable tale. That might include the zombies shambling in a staggered formation because reasons (broken terrain?), so that the challenge could include leading or pushing them into a tight grouping so the fireball can then be dropped on them. Herding zombies before immolating them sounds fun to me and is no doubt a neat story to recall later.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think someone walking around a confined space managing a 10' pole would be much more likely to blunder into a trap, not less.

Plus...it's just a goofy trope. Imagine the Mines of Moria, if the first thing the Fellowship did was get out a 10' pole before cautiously making their way ahead, probing gently as they went. Or the D&D movie, for that matter.
I've honestly never understood the 10 foot pole. A regular staff could be used to tap ahead but most traps other than the occasional trip wire won't be triggered by a stick anyway.
 

Oofta

Legend
Well, sure. But a lot of storytelling is going to cover some familiar ground, particularly within one game or genre. All I am saying is that when that happens, I still try to stay in character. As a storyteller, I am focused on character beats, not on spending my time trying to make sure every challenge is completely novel to every player. It's a cooperative game - if a player happens to be familiar with something their character obviously would not, how hard is it for them to act from the character's perspective?

And this is a two way street. The GM is typically expected to have their creatures and NPCs act as if in ignorance of the player characters' strengths, weaknesses, plans, etc. When running a game, aren't you often asking yourself "what would this creature/NPC do in this particular situation, with the information they have?" I think my players would be justifiably annoyed if I had the mob of zombies suddenly spread out as much as possible because I know the wizard character is packing fireball.

Edit: and I completely disagree with Gygax's argument that experienced and inexperienced players shouldn't mix. All that is required for it to work is that the experienced players be considerate. My school campaigns routinely mix players who are brand new with players who have memorized the PHB, and it works fine as long as you set up an expectation that each player be allowed to do their own thing.
The only exception to the NPC not knowing the character is the occasional big bad that has been spying on or otherwise gathering information about the PCs. Occasionally I'll roll a check for a highly intelligent level monster such as a lich to see if they know anything about PCs that are higher level. Same as I'll grant the PCs knowledge. But I just had a big bad try to cause fear on a high level party when the paladin makes everyone immune. In part to make the paladin feel awesome, in part because it made sense that the creature didn't know anything about the party, or even paladins for that matter.
 

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