Doctor Who s8e10 - "Dark Water" [spoilers]

[Jester David]

As an idea, I like it. But I can't see them going that route, because that means that the long-term future of the show would involve the main character becoming progressively more and more insane. Given the lukewarm response to Capaldi's "slightly off" Doctor, and the outright rejection of Colin Baker's unstable Sixth Doctor, I would be surprised if they wanted to follow that path.

I would expect the next incarnation to be back to being a much more friendly Doctor, probably a lot younger, and quite possibly something other than white male. Oh, and I don't expect to wait very much longer for it to happen - even a regen in the Christmas episode wouldn't shock me at this point.

I agree, from a logistics standpoint, it would destroy the show if the doctors got worse...

The sad thing, is Capaldi really wanted to be The Doctor, and they've kind of put him into a corner in this season. I'm not sure people are likely this season as much because of the way he's written to be an arse.

Ironically, both Colin Baker and Capaldi's Doctor's were meant to have the same arc: begin as dark, unstable characters with a familiar companion and then soften over time. It didn't work for Baker at the time, likely because that kind of character growth was hard for television at the time and the show was struggling. I think it'll be easier for Capaldi to manage; we're already seeing a softening of Capaldi as he tries to go to the afterlife to help Clara.

Personally, I rather like the darker more pragmatic Doctor. It reminds me more of the early Doctors. There's less whimsy, less wibbly wobbly. It's showing you can present an erratic, funny Doctor without making him overly childish.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Given the lukewarm response to Capaldi's "slightly off" Doctor, and the outright rejection of Colin Baker's unstable Sixth Doctor, I would be surprised if they wanted to follow that path.

Most of the reviews and reactions to Capaldi I have seen are quite positive.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Interesting that the Cybermen aren't just brains now.

I agree; we'd known about them from trailers months ago. Otherwise those Cyberman eye/tear logos on the doors and stuff would have been a real cool "Oh!" moment.

Yeah, I think this episode wasn't so much about reveals. Even the Missy=Master was quite obvious from the start but so many of us were just overthinking it because that is how we watch television now (10% viewing, 90% talking online).

I have to say I really liked this episode. I didn't very much care for the forest episode last week so this was a nice return and I really, really enjoyed them doing a two-parter again. Everything has felt so fast paced over the last couple of seasons (except the 50th special and the christmas episodes). I realize they are doing that for a reason, and that double episodes like this will be a rarity, but I quite like them being able to stretch and take their time with scenes.

 

[Richards]

One possibility I'll throw out there: if Missy is actually "collecting" the souls (for lack of a better word - perhaps she's merely copying their minds and memories somehow?) of the recent dead, maybe the Master had this whole Necropolis set-up up and running when he allowed himself to "die" (not regenerate) in Tennant's arms? It would make sense, if he already knew he would be "mind/soul-collected" and have his consciousness stored for insertion into a Missy-body. (I doubt his escape plan would have involved himself becoming a Cyberman.) But then that would mean that "Missy" is indeed a robot of some sort, or at least an artificial (or mind-wiped?) body that had the Master's mind dumped into it.

Here's where I'm still confused, though: in "Deep Breath," the first entity we saw Missy "collect" and take to the Afterlife was that mechanical construct, the "rubbish robot from the dawn of time." Her reason for taking him couldn't likely have been to convert him into a Cyberman, could it? Cybermen are living beings with augmented mechanical parts; this guy was, if anything, the exact opposite.

Johnathan

 

[MarkB]

One possibility I'll throw out there: if Missy is actually "collecting" the souls (for lack of a better word - perhaps she's merely copying their minds and memories somehow?) of the recent dead, maybe the Master had this whole Necropolis set-up up and running when he allowed himself to "die" (not regenerate) in Tennant's arms? It would make sense, if he already knew he would be "mind/soul-collected" and have his consciousness stored for insertion into a Missy-body. (I doubt his escape plan would have involved himself becoming a Cyberman.) But then that would mean that "Missy" is indeed a robot of some sort, or at least an artificial (or mind-wiped?) body that had the Master's mind dumped into it.

An interesting concept, which would mean this Master is a copy, rather than the one we saw in End of Time.

Here's where I'm still confused, though: in "Deep Breath," the first entity we saw Missy "collect" and take to the Afterlife was that mechanical construct, the "rubbish robot from the dawn of time." Her reason for taking him couldn't likely have been to convert him into a Cyberman, could it? Cybermen are living beings with augmented mechanical parts; this guy was, if anything, the exact opposite.

As I understand it (though I'm prepared for that to change next week), she was only collecting the minds, not the bodies, and that makes the robot a perfect candidate - he had developed true sentience over the millennia, but had only rudimentary emotions at best, and considered them to be a fault. An easy mind to divest of emotion, ready to download to a cyber body.

 

[Morrus]

Spoilers, but the trailer clearly had the line about building an army and there being far more dead people than alive people in Earth's history.

 

[Plane Sailing]

[MENTION=508]Richards[/MENTION], also confusing is the soldier that was disintegrated within the Dalek but turned up with missy. How does that work if creation is a bad thing?

 

[Bedrockgames]

[MENTION=508]Richards[/MENTION], also confusing is the soldier that was disintegrated within the Dalek but turned up with missy. How does that work if creation is a bad thing?

I think she only needs the bodies for later. I don't believe anything so far suggests she couldn't download the mind if the body were destroyed (though I think it implies she will have an extra mind). Maybe they will address those cases though in the finale.

 

[Morrus]

[MENTION=508]Richards[/MENTION], also confusing is the soldier that was disintegrated within the Dalek but turned up with missy. How does that work if creation is a bad thing?

Seb said it was a new body with the mind downloaded from the Nethersphere, which is a Time Lord hard drive. Then they have to - voluntarily, apparently - agree to delete their emotions. Not sure why they have to agree to it.

 

[MarkB]

[MENTION=508]Richards[/MENTION], also confusing is the soldier that was disintegrated within the Dalek but turned up with missy. How does that work if creation is a bad thing?

I think the point was that they feel everything that happens to their bodies. Being disintegrated at the moment of death is irrelevant, because it's over by the time they 'wake up' in the nethersphere, but being cremated later on is something they'll feel in full force.

Then again, I'm not sure how much of that "connected to the body" stuff to take seriously. It could all be a tailored illusion within the Nethersphere - simply a case of using whatever it takes to convince the uploaded minds to voluntarily give up their feelings.

EDIT: Also, since when do cybermen need human skeletons inside them? The Cybus Industries version only kept the nervous system, distributed through the robotic body as a control mechanism.