Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Okay, maybe call this attack Icy Clutch then (or Death(ly) Clutch)? - sounds like a good mechanic.
Yes might nudge the CR up but that's ok
Yes might nudge the CR up but that's ok
Dodkong minions
Cleon
Legend
I was thinking Doom Grip to match the Doom Strike.
Putting all the notions I had together looks like this:
Doom Grip. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit (automatically hits a restrained opponent), reach 15 ft. or range ##/###, one target. Hit: ## (#d# + #) psychic damage plus ## (#d# + #) necrotic damage and the target is grappled (escape DC ##). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the cairn shadowraith can't use Doom Grip or Doom Strike on another target. The target must succeed on a DC ## Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
In addition, if the target is a creature, it suffers 1 level of exhaustion if it fails the saving throw. If the target fails the saving throw by 5 points or more, it suffers an additional level of exhaustion. This exhaustion remains until it is healed magically: a lesser restoration can remove one level of exhaustion from a victim with two or fewer levels, a greater restoration will remove three levels of exhaustion. The target dies if it suffers 6 levels or exhaustion.
Okay, plugging the numbers of the 5E Wraith into the CR Calculator says it is Challenge Rating 4 but the actual undead is Challenge 5, suggesting the authors reckon its wraithly powers (i.e. condition immunities and Life Drain) are worth another +1 CR or possibly +20%. I'm still unclear as to how special abilities are supposed to effect CR.
The current Shadowraith has a Defensive CR 13, which implies that if we set the damage to a range that gives it Offensive CR 13 (which is DPR from 75 to 85) to make it an "unadjusted" Challenge 13 then its actual Challenge would be 14 or possibly 15, depending on how nasty we reckon it's various life sapping powers are.
Alternatively, we could lower the DPR to make its unadjusted Challenge 12, requiring an Offensive CR or 10 (DPR 63 to 68) or 11 (DPR 69 to 74), or possibly even Challenge 11 with Offensive CR 8 (DPR 45 to 56) or 9 or (DPR 57 to 62) and guesstimate the final creature as Challenge 13.
Hmm… I favor the second approach and keep it Challenge 13 with a DPR of, say, 60 or thereabouts. That way the cairn shadowraith would have basic attacks doing similar damage to the cairn wight's basic attacks (i.e. Skull Mace), which seems appropriate as they're closely related.
The special attacks would do a bit less damage. They're comparable to the cairn wight's Soul Drain, which does roughly two-thirds the damage of its Skull Mace.
Do those numbers sound reasonable to you?
Cleon
Legend
Okay, after running some calculations I've guesstimated these damage values are reasonable for the Cairn Shadowraith.
Remembered another idea I had.
My original concept for Doom Grip was called Soul Grip as I imagine the shadowraith's insubstantial hand crushing its opponent's spiritual essence rather than their physical body. That led to the idea that rolls to Escape would not depend on STR, since how would flesh-and-blood muscles help release your soul from such a hold, but either CHA or WIS. Similarly DEX checks to "wriggle free" of such a hold could be replaced by another mental ability.
In other words, instead of the Escaping a Grapple standard of "it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check" we could use the Variant: Skills with Different Abilities optional rule and have the victim roll, say Charisma (Athletics) or Intelligence (Acrobatics).
Alternatively, we could use different Skills for this special Escape check, such as Intelligence (Religion), Wisdom (Insight), Charisma (Deception) or Charisma (Intimidation).
Death Fist. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) bludgeoning damage plus 18 (4d8) necrotic damage.
Doom Grip. Hit: 25 (4d8 + 7) psychic damage plus 27 (6d8) necrotic damage and the target is grappled (escape DC 18).
Doom Strike. Hit: 25 (4d8 + 7) necrotic damage.
Phantom Boulder. Hit: 14 (2d10 + 3) psychic damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage.
Doom Grip. Hit: 25 (4d8 + 7) psychic damage plus 27 (6d8) necrotic damage and the target is grappled (escape DC 18).
Doom Strike. Hit: 25 (4d8 + 7) necrotic damage.
Phantom Boulder. Hit: 14 (2d10 + 3) psychic damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage.
Remembered another idea I had.
My original concept for Doom Grip was called Soul Grip as I imagine the shadowraith's insubstantial hand crushing its opponent's spiritual essence rather than their physical body. That led to the idea that rolls to Escape would not depend on STR, since how would flesh-and-blood muscles help release your soul from such a hold, but either CHA or WIS. Similarly DEX checks to "wriggle free" of such a hold could be replaced by another mental ability.
In other words, instead of the Escaping a Grapple standard of "it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check" we could use the Variant: Skills with Different Abilities optional rule and have the victim roll, say Charisma (Athletics) or Intelligence (Acrobatics).
Alternatively, we could use different Skills for this special Escape check, such as Intelligence (Religion), Wisdom (Insight), Charisma (Deception) or Charisma (Intimidation).
Cleon
Legend
Speaking of escape DCs, that's reminded me of something else I'd forgotten about.
The Cairn Wight has escape DC 19 on its Death Grip instead of the standard DC 21 from 10 + Strength (Athletics).
I vaguely recall deciding to set the DC with base DC 8 like a spell-type special attack rather than 10 since Death Grip has a nasty continuous effect and I didn't want it to be horribly hard to escape from.
We're fine using base 8 for grappling special attack's escape DCs since, as per the Monster Manual:
Come to think of it, a Cairn inherits a Stone Giant's double proficiency in Athletics so we never considered whether that would apply to its grappling special attacks escape DCs. I'm leaning towards no.
Applying double proficiency would give a Cairn Wight's Death Grip escape DC 26 (10+6+10), or escape DC 24 (8+3+10) if it's par with a spell, which is WAY too high. A Cairn Shadowraith would get escape DC 23 (10+3+10) or spell-style escape DC 21 (8+3+10) which also seems a bit excessive.
The Cairn Wight has escape DC 19 on its Death Grip instead of the standard DC 21 from 10 + Strength (Athletics).
I vaguely recall deciding to set the DC with base DC 8 like a spell-type special attack rather than 10 since Death Grip has a nasty continuous effect and I didn't want it to be horribly hard to escape from.
We're fine using base 8 for grappling special attack's escape DCs since, as per the Monster Manual:
GRAPPLE RULES FOR MONSTERS
Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. When a monster hits with such an attack, it doesn't need to make an additional ability check to determine whether the grapple succeeds, unless the attack says otherwise.
A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier.
Come to think of it, a Cairn inherits a Stone Giant's double proficiency in Athletics so we never considered whether that would apply to its grappling special attacks escape DCs. I'm leaning towards no.
Applying double proficiency would give a Cairn Wight's Death Grip escape DC 26 (10+6+10), or escape DC 24 (8+3+10) if it's par with a spell, which is WAY too high. A Cairn Shadowraith would get escape DC 23 (10+3+10) or spell-style escape DC 21 (8+3+10) which also seems a bit excessive.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Agree not duble proficiency. Damage numbers are ok. I like the idea of a spiritual grapple using CHA or WIS to break out of (could go with either). In transit. limited time. More time tomorrow.
Cleon
Legend
Updating the Cairn Shadowraith Working Draft.
How about this:
Soul Grip. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +8 to hit (automatically hits a restrained opponent), reach 15 ft. or range ##/###, one target. Hit: 25 (4d8 + 7) psychic damage plus 27 (6d8) necrotic damage and the target is grappled (escape DC 18) and the target is grappled (escape DC 18). Until this grapple ends, the target is restrained, and the cairn shadowraith can't use Soul Grip or Doom Strike on another target. The target must succeed on a DC 18 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
In addition, if the target is a creature, it suffers 1 level of exhaustion if it fails the saving throw. If the target fails the saving throw by 5 points or more, it suffers an additional level of exhaustion. This exhaustion remains until it is healed magically: a lesser restoration can remove one level of exhaustion from a victim with two or fewer levels, a greater restoration will remove three levels of exhaustion. The target dies if it suffers 6 levels or exhaustion.
VARIANT: SPECTRAL GRASP
Many cairn shadowraiths have the following trait.
Spiritual Grapple. The cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of the target's spirit and lifeforce instead of grappling its corporeal body. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
In addition, if the target is a creature, it suffers 1 level of exhaustion if it fails the saving throw. If the target fails the saving throw by 5 points or more, it suffers an additional level of exhaustion. This exhaustion remains until it is healed magically: a lesser restoration can remove one level of exhaustion from a victim with two or fewer levels, a greater restoration will remove three levels of exhaustion. The target dies if it suffers 6 levels or exhaustion.
VARIANT: SPECTRAL GRASP
Many cairn shadowraiths have the following trait.
Spiritual Grapple. The cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of the target's spirit and lifeforce instead of grappling its corporeal body. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
We need a range for the Soul Grip.
I was thinking something on par with a throwing weapon, like the 20/60 of a Handaxe or the 30/120 of a Javelin.
Maybe 15/60? Then its accurate ranged attack goes the same distance as its melee reach, but it can attack opponents with disadvantage up to four times further away by stretching out its "spiritual arm"?
Now I'm wondering whether its spiritual arm is invisible, an intangible ghostly hand floats through the air to grab the target, or the cairn shadowraith looks like a spectral Plastic Man (or Mr Fantastic if you prefer Marvel).
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Cleon
Legend
Toying with some alternative wordings:
Hmm…
I like #2 the best. The wording is a little neater.
Spiritual Grapple #2. The cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of a target's spirit and lifeforce, not its corporeal body. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
Spiritual Grapple #3. Instead of a corporeal body, the cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of a target's spirit and lifeforce. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
Spiritual Grapple #3. Instead of a corporeal body, the cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of a target's spirit and lifeforce. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
Hmm…
I like #2 the best. The wording is a little neater.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
agreed on #2 - or maybe "seizes hold of a target's spirit and lifeforce, rather than its corporeal body." ?
and 15/60 range
and 15/60 range
Cleon
Legend
I'm fine with that wording but not the grammar. It doesn't need the comma:
Spiritual Grapple #4. The cairn shadowraith's Soul Grip seizes hold of a target's spirit and lifeforce rather than its corporeal body. A creature that is spiritually grappled can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw against the escape DC of the grapple.
Agreed.
Updating the Cairn Shadowraith Working Draft.
Mod Note:
@Cleon , it’s not a major deal, but we typically limit use of red or orange text for moderation purposes. So if you’d change your colorized passages to any other color, that would be great!
