D&D 3E/3.5 Does/should nondetection block detect magic? 3.5 update (kinda)

[Olive]

In this thread http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=958713#post958713, (Psi)SeveredHead and I have been discussing hiding a polymorphed dragon from detect magic.

I noticed that nondetection doesn't block detect magic, as detect magic is a universal, not a divination. I suspect this is a design oversight ("we'll make detect magic a universal, so no dumb specialist will be unable to cast it") but the rules is the rules. Is there a FAQ update to this? Is there some other way to prevent the first detect magic that the party happens to cast to ruining the interesting plot set up by exposing the dragon?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Misdirection...

-Hyp.

 

[Olive]

Misdirection...

From the SRD:
"By means of this spell, the character misdirects the information from divination spells that reveal auras. "

as Detect Magic isn't a divination, it doesn't apply.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It also, however, says that "Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds at his save."

I don't think anyone would argue that Detect Magic qualifies as a detection spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Croaker]

I understand that in 3.5, specialists cannot choose Divination as a prohibited school, so maybe Detect Magic will be reclassified. That would solve the dilemma nicely.

 

[Olive]

It also, however, says that "Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds at his save."

I don't think anyone would argue that Detect Magic qualifies as a detection spell.

-Hyp.

Ok Hyp, here's the whole text:
"By means of this spell, the character misdirects the information from divination spells that reveal auras. On casting the spell, the character chooses another object within range. For the duration of the spell, the subject of misdirection is detected as if it were the other object. Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds at his save.
This spell does not affect other types of divination."

I would argue that the description of 'detection' is specifying a certain type of divination spell. I'm basing this off of the last sentence. If it was refering to non-divinations it a) wouldn't talk about divinations in the first sentence; and b) wouldn't talk about divinations in the last sentence.

I'm positive that by the strict letter of the rules, this means that Detect Magic isn't blocked by misdirection. Stupid? Maybe, but that's not the question. I think that the description is pretty clear that detection spells are a type of divination, and that Detect Magic, not being a divination, isn't one of them.Just for fun, I've emailed the Sage.

I understand that in 3.5, specialists cannot choose Divination as a prohibited school, so maybe Detect Magic will be reclassified. That would solve the dilemma nicely.

Yes it would. I wonder if they'll change it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would argue that the description of 'detection' is specifying a certain type of divination spell. I'm basing this off of the last sentence. If it was refering to non-divinations it a) wouldn't talk about divinations in the first sentence; and b) wouldn't talk about divinations in the last sentence.

I'm going to pick another spell at random...

Lightning Bolt
You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level to each creature within the area. The bolt begins at your fingertips.
The lightning bolt sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path...

Now, how much damage does lightning bolt deal to objects? The only reference to an amount of damage is how much it deals to creatures. But then it goes on to say it can damage objects. Assume, then, that it deals 1d6/level to objects as well?

Misdirection initially refers to divination spells that reveal auras - like Lightning Bolt talks about creatures. Then it talks about detection spells - like Lightning Bolt talks about objects. Then it says it doesn't affect other types of divination.

So, Misdirection affects divinations that reveal auras (but not other types of divination), and detection spells.

Now, all of the detection spells bar one are divination spells that reveal auras, and the one left over is a universal spell that reveals auras.

Using the Lightning Bolt analogy, Detect Magic is not necessarily excluded from the list of spells Misdirection will affect - it's a detection spell, which Misdirection does affect.

-Hyp.

 

[Harlequin_1998]

Please, let us not forget the Golden Rule of Roleplaying - when in doubt, make something up. If the DM says Detect Magic can be misdirected, than so be it.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most game designers did not start their careers as paralegals or contract lawyers. The rules should be interpreted with the mindset that the designers haven't gone over everything with a fine-toothed comb, checking to see that all the words are exactly the specific words. If they did that, then the rulebooks would start to look like insurance policies.

 

[LokiDR]

I'm going to pick another spell at random...

Lightning Bolt
You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level to each creature within the area. The bolt begins at your fingertips.
The lightning bolt sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path...

Now, how much damage does lightning bolt deal to objects? The only reference to an amount of damage is how much it deals to creatures. But then it goes on to say it can damage objects. Assume, then, that it deals 1d6/level to objects as well?

Misdirection initially refers to divination spells that reveal auras - like Lightning Bolt talks about creatures. Then it talks about detection spells - like Lightning Bolt talks about objects. Then it says it doesn't affect other types of divination.

So, Misdirection affects divinations that reveal auras (but not other types of divination), and detection spells.

Now, all of the detection spells bar one are divination spells that reveal auras, and the one left over is a universal spell that reveals auras.

Using the Lightning Bolt analogy, Detect Magic is not necessarily excluded from the list of spells Misdirection will affect - it's a detection spell, which Misdirection does affect.

-Hyp.

Lightning Bolt specifically equates objects in path to the creatures it harms: "and damages objects in its path". In the case of misdirection, the limit is "detect" divination spells. "This spell does not affect other types of divination." Detect spells are not added to divinations the way objects are added to creatures for lightning bolt.

Misdirection specifically mentions divinations as the limit of its scope twice. It also mentions detection spells as a limit. Both limits apply, so dection divinations.

Stupid or not is another matter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Lightning Bolt specifically equates objects in path to the creatures it harms: "and damages objects in its path".

How do you know? It goes on to say that it melts metals etc. It could mean that creatures take 1d6/level points of damage, and objects are "damaged" because if they get hit by a lightning bolts, they catch fire or melt, ignoring hit points.

You have to make the assumption that the rule "creatures take 1d6/level damage" also applies to the new category that has been added to the text after the initial brieg description of what the spell does.

The initial brief description of Misdirection says it affects Divinations. But then it goes on to describe its effect on Detections.

Since the text on Lightning Bolt's effect on objects is not limited by its initial statement that Lightning Bolt Damages Creatures, why is Misdirection's effect on Detect Magic limited by its initial statement that Misdirection affects Divinations? It doesn't say only Divinations. And the limitation at the end - "Other sorts of divination are not affected" - doesn't apply to Detect Magic, which isn't, as has been pointed out, a divination.

The text describes effects on Divinations-that-reveal-auras and Detections. Detect Magic is a Detection, so the spell can be interpreted in such a fashion that the effect-on-Detections is applicable.

-Hyp.