DoF "spikes" spell.

[Power_Munchkin]

If this has been discussed already at some point, please point me to the correct thread...

Anyways, about the spikes & brambles spells from DoF.

As I learned from actual gameplay experience, these spells are a tad too powerful as written. So I rule zeroed that you get +1 to damage for every other level up to +10 at level 20... This made the spell a little more reasonable.

What I'm wondering about is whether the bonus to damage stacks with the weapon's enhancement bonus. Does it?

The +1 or +2 to hit is clearly labeled as an enhancement bonus, but it just says "inflicts additional damage" for the damage bonus. You'd think that if the additional damage was also an enhancement bonus they would have clearly marked it as such...

What's the general consensus on this issue?

 

[reapersaurus]

ya, they're a bit powerful (but not unbalancing, IMO).
I think you're reading 'em right - there's no written type of bonus for the damage, so it should 'stack' with anything else.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's interesting that we have a similar house rule.

But, mine only goes up to +5, the maximum for damage bonus for magical weapons in DND.

When I compare Spikes as a 3rd level spell for both Clerics and Druids with the 4th level Clerical spell Greater Magic Weapon, here is what I see:

Both last one hour per level.

Spikes is +2/+5 at caster level 5.
GMW does not exist at caster level 5.

GMW is +2/+2 at caster level 7.
Spikes is +2/+7 at caster level 7.

If you do the +1 / 2 levels as you do, then at various levels, it becomes:

5 Spikes +2/+2

6 Spikes +2/+3

7 Spikes +2/+3
7 GMW +2/+2

8 Spikes +2/+4
8 GMW +2/+2

9 Spikes +2/+4
9 GMW +3/+3

10 Spikes +2/+5
10 GMW +3/+3

12 Spikes +2/+6
12 GMW +4/+4

14 Spikes +2/+7
14 GMW +4/+4

15 Spikes +2/+7
15 GMW +5/+5

16 Spikes +2/+8
16 GMW +5/+5

18 Spikes +2/+9
18 GMW +5/+5

20 Spikes +2/+10
20 GMW +5/+5

This means that Spikes is as potent or more than GMW at every level except 15, although Spikes is a 3rd level spell and GMW is a 4th level spell. If you limit it to +5, then Spikes is more or equally potent up to level 10, and GMW is more potent after level 10. But, having a 3rd level spell be more potent overall is not right (and the original Spikes in DoF is a nightmare).

Plus, Spikes increases the threat range as a touch spell on specific weapons. GMW can be cast at short range on more types of weapons. I consider the threat range increase to be slightly more effective an ability in combat, but others might consider these to be a wash.


As for your original question, I would rule that just like GMW, the damage portion is an enhancement bonus. Especially since Spikes is so VERY potent.

 

[reapersaurus]

great analysis, KD, however, you're missing one KEY point.

Spikes can only be cast on a wooden weapon.

When you loook at the wooden weapons, you are QUITE limited in effectiveness.

In fact, I haven't found one wooden weapon that has better than a 20 threat range.

And it was agreed on a dedicated thread that the Greatclub is the worst large weapon in the game.

So it's not as easy of comparison as that.

 

[Fade]

No dice - the ironwood spell allows you to make any metal item out of wood instead. No reason why you can't have an Ironwood Greatsword (apart from the fact that spikes ought to make it less effective.)

 

[KarinsDad]

great analysis, KD, however, you're missing one KEY point.

Spikes can only be cast on a wooden weapon.

I didn't miss that point. I said "GMW can be cast at short range on more types of weapons."

When you loook at the wooden weapons, you are QUITE limited in effectiveness.

In fact, I haven't found one wooden weapon that has better than a 20 threat range.

And it was agreed on a dedicated thread that the Greatclub is the worst large weapon in the game.

So it's not as easy of comparison as that.

Well, ok. Let's do a more exacting comparison.

Although most wooden weapons do "lousy damage", there is no reason to increase the damage of them by +10.

That really is ludicrous. A "Spiked" club does 1D6+10 x3 max. A "GMW" longsword does 1d8+5 19/20 x2 max.

The increased threat range of Spikes does not bring simple wooden weapons up into martial weapons range. But, for things like a Greatclub, it brings it into reach of other large martial weapons.

Plus, you are forgetting one major thing.

Spikes is 3rd level whereas GMW is 4th level.

GMW SHOULD be more potent, but as written Spikes is a lot more potent. Using the 1 per 2 level max 5 for damage brings Spikes into it's own. Yes, Spikes can only be used on wooden weapons. But, GMW should get something for being a 4th level spell.

So, considering that GMW can be used on all weapons, let's add one point of damage to GMW weapons in our comparison due to a character using a longsword (d8) instead of a club (d6) with the +1 per 2 levels max 10 house rule. In other words, 7th level GMW does +2/+2 plus 1 more point of damage since a longsword averages a point more of damage than a club (the threat ranges are equal due to increased threat range of Spikes).

5 Spikes +2/+2

6 Spikes +2/+3

7 Spikes +2/+3
7 GMW +2/+3

8 Spikes +2/+4
8 GMW +2/+3

9 Spikes +2/+4
9 GMW +3/+4

10 Spikes +2/+5
10 GMW +3/+4

12 Spikes +2/+6
12 GMW +4/+5

14 Spikes +2/+7
14 GMW +4/+5

15 Spikes +2/+7
15 GMW +5/+6

16 Spikes +2/+8
16 GMW +5/+6

18 Spikes +2/+9
18 GMW +5/+6

20 Spikes +2/+10
20 GMW +5/+6

At 5th and 6th level, Spikes is a lot better due to a Cleric not being able to use GMW at all. It is slightly better at levels 8 and 20.

GMW is better at level 15 and slightly better at levels 9, 12, 13, 16 and 17.

So with this house rule, GMW is slightly better overall due to being able to be used on more types of weapons. But again, it IS a fourth level spell.


But, I do not think this is totally balanced as a house rule for one very important reason, even though it makes Spikes as effective as GMW for the most part.

At high levels, a Druid will already have a +4 or +5 club. So, a high level Druid will be able to increase the weapon damage of that club by +5 or +6 with a 3rd level spell (assuming that the DM rules that the damage add is an enhancement bonus).

The high level Cleric will be able to increase the weapon damage of his +4 or +5 Morningstar by +0 or +1 with a 4th level spell.

So, the 3rd level spell at the higher levels is considerable more useful. Hmmmm.

To me, this is still slightly unbalanced. I have no problem with GMW adding a lot more to a random non-magical weapon (+5/+5) in comparison to Spikes adding less to a random non-magical club (+2/+5). Why? Because you can add +5 damage to the club at level 10 whereas you have to wait until level 15 to do that with GMW. And with Brambles, you can add this mega-damage with a 2nd level spell.

And finally, when you add in other spells at higher level such as Fade's mention of Ironwood, the Druid is still raking out more with a +10 add to damage.

So, although Power_Munchkin's house rule is a LOT more balanced than the original wording of the spell, there is a specific REASON that the DMG limits damage for weapons to +5. JMO.

 

[Power_Munchkin]

hm

Well, greater magic weapon can:

1. Get past damage reducton. A "spiked" weapon can not, so the extra damage is moot vs. DR.
2. Affect ANY weapon, including 50 projectiles.
3. Make the weapon MUCH more difficult to sunder. A "spiked" quarterstaff on the other hand is vulnerable to any mundane or magical weapon.

Of course when you combine the two...

Spikes are overpowered, no doubt about it, which is why I "fixed" it. This makes it still overpowered, but less so.

Btw, why is greatclub a martial weapon?

 

[reapersaurus]

Great analysis again, KD.

I think you've got the bases covered pretty darn well.

About Ironwood:
i think it's a stretch to just say that because this spell exists, it allows any usually-metal weapon to be made of wood and therefore enchantable by Spikes.

It's a 6th level Druid spell.
So therefore, to get the benefits of a Ironwooded wooden-sword, there must be:
a) the PC is going to either BE a druid that casts the spells and then goes into melee. Not the best of things for druids to do, as I gather.
b) an expensive enchantment on the weapon.
c) a high-level Druid in the party that consistently has to cast a high-level spell for the weapon-wielder's benefit.

just wanted to point that out.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hi, Reaper.

Comparing GMW with spikes is an apples/oranges problem. GMW is all about overcoming DR; the damage/attack/anti-Sunder bonuses are just icing. Spikes lets the user deal lots of damage with a wooden weapon.

The real spikes/GMW issue is combining them. IMC, the extra damage is an enhancement bonus, so spikes can be useful after GMW.

I'll also note that ironwood wouldn't really count against the party druid, as he/she could just cast it out of combat every other week or so.

 

[Fade]

From the SRD
Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, the character can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal, steel counterparts