Don't hate the playa, hate the game

[James Heard]

What I always think is funny is the profuse and gratuitous apologies from other players when they've finally all ganged up and decided to kill my PC, compared to my shrugging off the killing of theirs. It's like, "Dude, the character was a jerk - he deserved it." Maybe it's just having ran Cyberpunk 2020 for so long, when dying could happen because people were laying down suppressing fire on the other side of the building and through to you - and VtM where it was almost a given that any two players were plotting the demise of another at any time. For cripes' sake, don't say that you want a gritty realistic game with a bunch of characters that can "huzzah" and cheer about exterminating every man, woman, & child of a tribe of humanoids and then for some reason wouldn't sack another character for a potentially deadly practical joke. It's very important to make sure that everyone's playing the same sort of game at all times. No one wants to sign up for Superman only to find out they're in Watchmen and all that.

 

[Darkness]

Do you differentiate between the DM and the NPCs/monsters/world/plots/etc.?

Do you differentiate between the Player and the player character?

Strange question AFAIC - of course we do.

 

[Crothian]

THe thing is some people will nopt sperate the game from life. I know DMs who hold grudges against people and then bad things in the game happen to those people. It isn't the game, it is the players that you should hate sometimes. Other times it is the game.

 

[Quasqueton]

I had my first taste of this many, many years ago (we were in our teens). I was a Player, and we were starting a new campaign with 3rd-level characters (AD&D1, FR).

We followed the directions on a "Adventurers Wanted" flyer, and showed up at the local lord's hall. There were two other groups there too. One group was obviously experienced. One group obviously novices. And then our group, not experienced, but not beginners either. The lord picked our group.

We went to hunt the bandits and were ambushed at our camp in the first night. We survived the ambush, but had to retreat back to town (it had been a very tough fight). We ended the game session in the town.

After the game all we Players were complaining about the poor plot design. Why did the lord just "happen" to pick us when there were better adventurers there? Lame. And then we ran into the bandits on our very first night looking for them? Lame. The plot was just landing in our laps.

And then, in frustration, the DM explained the plot. The bandits were working for the lord (more plot here I don't remember). But the lord had to *look like* he was trying to stop them. He didn't want the experienced adventurers because they might defeat his bandits and actually stop his plot. He couldn't pick the obviously novice adventurers because it would be apparent he wasn't really trying. So he picked us as a "compromise". Then his spies got word to the bandits that we were coming, and they set up the ambush to take us out first thing.

This was all supposed to be clues and warnings that all was not as it seems in the adventure. The junk we were complaining about as being silly plot was actually plot clues. Had we Players not been metagaming and complaining about the DM's lack of creativity, we could have had a pretty fun and creative campaign. As it was, though, because the DM told us everything, we ended the campaign right then.

So now I try to live by the idea to give the DM the benefit of the doubt. If something stupid happens in the game, don't assume the DM is stupid. And when I DM, I hope my Players give me the same benefit. And my Players seem to.

Quasqueton

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Unfortunately sometimes the DM is stupid, or just out to screw the characters. I have even encountered DMs who boast about it. Wow, you made sure that the game was no fun for anybody but you, yeah, that took talent... Boasting about it afterwards... let us just say that I will never play in his games.

A more frequent problem is the DM who does not want to give the players any control over the plots. I was in a Werewolf game where the GM gave out only an experience point or so every other week, because he didn't want the PCs 'outstripping his plot'. After a few months he didn't have to worry about that anymore, he didn't have any players left.

It tends not to be the first game that makes the players go 'meh', but the third. Players saying 'meh' is not exactly high praise. Something will need to be fixed.

The Auld Grump

 

[Hand of Evil]

There are poor DMs, good DMs, and great DMs - DMing can be learned but it also takes some skills and then there are those with talent. A poor DM forgets it is a game and will sometimes make it DM vs The Players, a good DM knows it is a game and runs is like a story, then the great DMs make it all look easy.

Players are much the same, poor players think the DM is out to get them, good players have background, and invest in the story ideas BUT great players are the result of being good players with a great DM.

Then there are games, poor ones, good ones, and great ones - some games are off, some are on, sometimes everything just comes together.

In the other thread I talked about motivation, presentation. You have to spend time knowing your players, not just their characters; what do they bring to their characters, what do they put into them, what is their investment in the game? Gaming is not just DM and players, it is players, characters, DM, plots, world, a timeline, interaction, and having fun.

There is no real answer here, you tave to work at the game, players and DM, you have to talk together and work together, you just do not show up to play a game, you show up to interact with the game.

 

[uffinf]

I am running a campaign right now and the players are doing exactly what you descibe. At the end of each session I endure "What CR was that so-n-so", "How were we supposed to handle that?", etc.. So far I haven't explained the plot, I am hoping they will figure it out and realize what a great DM I am . But they do not get upset at me personally, they just settle for critisizing my DM style.

 

[Victim]

Do you differentiate between the DM and the NPCs/monsters/world/plots/etc.?

Do you differentiate between the Player and the player character?

Sometimes, it depends on the context.

Do you get mad at the DM when he breaks your favorite magic sword? Or do you get mad at the fire giant that sundered your character's favorite magic sword?

Like I said, it depends. In many cases, a foe sundering a valuable magic weapon makes alot of sense. I've suggested that our characters use Sunder on some nice swords before, simply because the enemy was using them to heal just as fast as we were doing damage. If it's clear that there's only 1 weapon in the group that can hurt monster A, the monster can figure that out, and it has the means to Sunder, then it's a good move. But in many cases, it can just be pure spite: "this monster isn't doing enough, I want it to do something before it dies. Maybe it can sunder before it dies."

Do you get mad at the DM when he uses a geas on you to make you go on an adventure? Or do you get mad at the high priest who used a geas on your character to make him go on the adventure?

Both. Geas is a very poor spell, IMHO. To put things into context, imagine the PCs casting Geas on your major NPCs to make them obey the group or whatever. Yeah, real fair.

Do you get mad at the DM when he ambushes you in the night when you aren't prepared? Or do you get mad at the assassin's guild who jumped your character in the night when he/she wasn't prepared?

Actually, I wonder why the heck we weren't prepared - the assassins are just doing their job after all. Of course, if we take extreme precautions against being found like resting in a Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion set up in an isolated area while the group is Mind Blanked, then I might start to get upset at the DM - but there's always Metafaculty.

Do you get mad at the Player when he steals the gems from the treasure chest before you could get to it? Or do you get mad at the PC who stole the gems before your character could get to it?

Both. My PC will usually get mad at someone stealing his share of the treasure. From an OOC perspective, I wonder what the heck the player is thinking. If the character is ever caught, it basically forces the group into an immediate direct conflict.

It seems that there are many Players and DMs who don't differentiate between a Player/DM and characters. I've read in some threads where a Player states, "If the DM did that to me, I'd quit."

So, is the DM/NPC and Player/PC separation a myth? Or do you and your group accept the difference?

Quasqueton

Ultimately, there isn't that big of a difference. If my character does something, it's because the player wanted it to. Same for the DM and NPCs. The excuse "it's what my character/ NPC X would do" only goes so far, because these characters don't exist intrisically. You chose to make your character a klepto thief, so of course stealing everything is in character. That doesn't mean you aren't being deliberately disruptive.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I have had the pleasure and misfortune to experience the whole gamut of PC-to-NPC & Player-to-DM gaming styles. After all this I cannot stress the importance of trust and communication, I've had to have done the same as yourself, Quasqueton, but also otoh I have been guilty of being the villainous ringleader. Finally I've come round to being the fiercest enemy of adversarial D&D gaming, that to me is the lowest experience.

Today I am going to be a player in the alternate campaign and (between yourselves and I) the DM makes a much better job of it when I buy into the world and drag the other players, kicking and screaming, into the level of immersion that he wants. To me that is what being a good player is and a DM can't create a good game without good players.

As an aside, 'immersing' myself into the world via my character is a natural gaming style that requires the least effort on my part and creates a predictability that makes the DM's job easier. Bluntly, good players make easier, more fun gaming.

 

[yennico]

I totally agree with TheAuldGrump first post and Hand of Evil post.