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Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

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Demon Knight

First Post
call me stupid but.....I didnt know the half celestial template gave you any skill points. I thought all classes used their own skill points, not their racial skill points as listed in the MM. Now, if the half celestial template gave additional HD, I could see the 8+int per HD skill points added in, but I cant see how the template would increase, per se, a wizard's skill points to 8 + int per level.

Maybe its something in SavS (which I dont have obviously). Could someone clear this up for me?
 

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clark411

First Post
Not to nitpick, but I gotta complain about the opinion given about detect thoughts at will.

This spell is pretty much the low level be all and end all of dungeon crawling. Oh look a door up ahead.. *detect thoughts*.. "Guys there's about 5 people behind the door, who knows if they have undead or constructs... one moment.. Whoa one's smart.. arcane spellcaster possibly." Now, I'll stop using my ability before they can even tell i'm using it (the will save.. if that's how it works in your campaign)... OR I can choose to continue and possibly hear what's in their heads.

How can this possibly be considered weak? except for not picking up vermin, skeletons and a few other things, this is an excellent tool for knowing what to expect ahead of yah. Detect thoughts, rubbish? Raaar.
 

Technik
Offensively, the increased Sneak Attack (albet the half-fiend only has 1 more die) does make them slightly better in combat. However, as others have pointed out, it seems like the doppleganger, while having less sneak die, would tend to get more important/impressive sneak attacks off.

The doppleganger has a grand bonus of +1 more attack bonus than the Half-fiend, and equal amount compared to the drow rogue, so I don't see why it would be more efficiant in scoring more damage than the other two because of it, especially accounting for their increased Sneak Attack bonuses.

Let's not forget that the other two have Evasion, while the Doppleganger does not. Assuming we level them just once, the Doppleganger will get Evasion, but then, assuming the other two take a level in assassin, gain an additional +1d6 sneak attack further distancing themselves away from the Doppleganger (with the Half-Fiend gaining death attack as well)

Furthermore both the half-fiend and the doppleganger probably qualify for Assasin next level. While the half-fiend has more skills, the doppleganger has a slightly higher BAB (thanks to his monstrous humanoid levels). The doppleganger also has more hp and far better will saves. The half-fiend is truly abysmal at will saves, and its something like an achilles heel. For the drow its still bad, but at least some racial abilities help to overcome it.

I may do a Doppleganger Rog2/Ass10 vs Drow Rog8/Ass10 vs Half-Fiend Rog 6/Ass10 later, but I have a feeling things will be much the same in terms of analysis. Less Sneak attack, higher hp, slightly better BAB, still has overwhelming spell-like abilities.

Considering I don't have a 3.5e MM with me, does the Doppleganger have Move Silently/Hide on its Racial HD Skill list? If not, assuming my memory of the assassin's requisites are correct, the doppleganger would not be able to meet its requisites til after ECL 14. (4 HD that grant 2 skill points, 6 levels that grant 6 skill points, and 4 ECL) Which means, regardless if it has +1 more bonus from its Int compared to the other two assassins, its DC will be lesser. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

As I am mostly a player using 3e, where a Hat of Disguise costs only 2,000 gold (a fact I have not yet checked in 3.5e)-and while more limited-it produces a skill bonus rivaled to the Doppelganger's natural changing ability at a cheap cost. And while Disguise and Bluff are improtant, there are other skills as well which the other two would be more proficient with. The Doppleganger may know what's behind the door, but the drow rogue would have a better chance of picking the lock on it, for instance (his higher max skill ranks due to HD would still be better than a +1 bonus the other two may have from higher stat bonuses).

The will save may be a weakness, yes, but unlike the doppleganger, the half-fiend is an Outsider, and thus has natural resistance to Charm Person and Dominate Person, the latter spell one of the more feared powers available to wizards this level. And not to mention, as this is for ECL 9, 25% of all spells on average will bounce of the fiend anyways, not just the ones reliant on Will saves (and 40% for the Drow, who has a further +2 bonus to Will saves vs. spells).

Clark:
It's not that it's considered weak, it's just that I may not be as powerful as the official ECL rates it as. (As ECL +5 is pretty hindering to several classes)
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Sollir Furryfoot said:
Technik
Considering I don't have a 3.5e MM with me, does the Doppleganger have Move Silently/Hide on its Racial HD Skill list? If not, assuming my memory of the assassin's requisites are correct, the doppleganger would not be able to meet its requisites til after ECL 14. (4 HD that grant 2 skill points, 6 levels that grant 6 skill points, and 4 ECL) Which means, regardless if it has +1 more bonus from its Int compared to the other two assassins, its DC will be lesser. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
No, it doesn't have those skills as class skills. However it's entirely possible for someone to buy every rank in a skill with a class for which that skill is not cross class (ie - in one rogue level, you could spend 8 points on move silently, assuming that you've got at least 5 levels/hit dice). IOW 2 levels of rogue get the doppleganger his move silently and hide prereqs, plus some change. He can potentially get into assassin after 9 ECL.

As I am mostly a player using 3e, where a Hat of Disguise costs only 2,000 gold (a fact I have not yet checked in 3.5e)-and while more limited-it produces a skill bonus rivaled to the Doppelganger's natural changing ability at a cheap cost. And while Disguise and Bluff are improtant, there are other skills as well which the other two would be more proficient with. The Doppleganger may know what's behind the door, but the drow rogue would have a better chance of picking the lock on it, for instance (his higher max skill ranks due to HD would still be better than a +1 bonus the other two may have from higher stat bonuses).
Hat of disguise is 1800. If you're just looking for the skill bonus, it does fine. Change shape does significantly more however.

The will save may be a weakness, yes, but unlike the doppleganger, the half-fiend is an Outsider, and thus has natural resistance to Charm Person and Dominate Person, the latter spell one of the more feared powers available to wizards this level. And not to mention, as this is for ECL 9, 25% of all spells on average will bounce of the fiend anyways, not just the ones reliant on Will saves (and 40% for the Drow, who has a further +2 bonus to Will saves vs. spells).
As far as I can see, monstrous humanoids are unaffected by the 'person' spells, which renders the doppleganger immune too. Finally, I wouldn't mind knowing where the 25%/40% number comes from? You mean from an equal CR caster, right? The overall number of spells blocked is likely to be significantly lower than that.
 

reapersaurus

Explorer
Saeviomagy said:
I think the big nasty in most of the ECL's is the fact that you HAVE to take the racial hit dice.

This seriously favours some monster types (celestial for instance - good bab, skills, saves, or even better, dragon) while screwing over others (you never want to be forced to take humanoid hit dice for instance).

And yet regardless of what variety of hit dice you have, they all count 1/1 as levels, and you're forced to take them all.
I just want to reiterate this statement:

The LA system, as I understand it, severely over-costs many creatures, simply because of the requirement to have monstrous HD, combined with WotC's silly and completely unsupported insistance that 1 monstrous HD=1 LA (or ECL)

Can anyone explain to me if I (and others) are wrong in this understanding of Monster Characters and their HD?
 

Technik4

First Post
Considering I don't have a 3.5e MM with me, does the Doppleganger have Move Silently/Hide on its Racial HD Skill list? If not, assuming my memory of the assassin's requisites are correct, the doppleganger would not be able to meet its requisites til after ECL 14. (4 HD that grant 2 skill points, 6 levels that grant 6 skill points, and 4 ECL) Which means, regardless if it has +1 more bonus from its Int compared to the other two assassins, its DC will be lesser. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

You are right about the doppleganger's skill set. I would argue, however, that the assasin as presented in the DMG is self-limiting itself to humanoids in general in terms of its prerequisites. First, anyone could be trained as an assasin, the game and its rules limit this to characters who have sufficient ability so that the average guild would accept them. Picture said guild when a rogue (as in, not with a bunch of its kind) doppleganger comes on the scene. "I can assume any shape I wish, get in wherever I want." At that point the guildmaster does not ask "Yes, but can you sneak around?" The possibilities are equal if not greater for a doppleganger to penetrate anywhere an assasin (or rogue) could with Hide/Move Silently. It would be nice if the SS had given alternate prerequisites so that monsters need only meet a BAB restriction and have some "special quality or attack" to get into certain prcs. For instance, a shadow would make a perfect shadowdancer :))) and something like the Xill (a natural planeswalker) would be a perfect Horizon Walker.

As I said though, you are right. A doppleganger does not qualify for the assasin prc. However, in some ways, the perfect doppleganger assasin can be made just taking rogue and fighter levels, or even by taking shadowdancer levels. While the death attack is what gives an assasin its prestige (yuk yuk) as Artemis Entreri has proven, being a good assasin just means you kill people.

As I am mostly a player using 3e, where a Hat of Disguise costs only 2,000 gold (a fact I have not yet checked in 3.5e)-and while more limited-it produces a skill bonus rivaled to the Doppelganger's natural changing ability at a cheap cost. And while Disguise and Bluff are improtant, there are other skills as well which the other two would be more proficient with. The Doppleganger may know what's behind the door, but the drow rogue would have a better chance of picking the lock on it, for instance (his higher max skill ranks due to HD would still be better than a +1 bonus the other two may have from higher stat bonuses).

Different ways to do the same thing. While a doppleganger may not be the thief that can guide you down a trapped corridor detecting, disabling (and possibly resetting) the traps along the way, the doppleganger may have been able to avoid the corridor entirely through different channels. Not in your typical abandoned ruins/dungeon, but in social interactions he always has the upper-hand.

Furthermore, a Hat of Disguise is little more than an insta-disguise kit. You can't appear more than 1 ft. different height-wise, it doesn't alter the tactile (nor even the perceived tactile) properties of your form. You touch a doppleganger that looks like a knight in shining armor, you touch armor. A rogue with a hat of disguise, you touch leather (unless the rogue had time to preprare said disguise by putting on some full-plate). It is also dispelled by touch, or interacting with the said disguised person. While it may be useful to get you through the city gates, it won't get you in the castle, if you know what I mean.

The will save may be a weakness, yes, but unlike the doppleganger, the half-fiend is an Outsider, and thus has natural resistance to Charm Person and Dominate Person, the latter spell one of the more feared powers available to wizards this level. And not to mention, as this is for ECL 9, 25% of all spells on average will bounce of the fiend anyways, not just the ones reliant on Will saves (and 40% for the Drow, who has a further +2 bonus to Will saves vs. spells).

Close, but no cigar. First, the only one getting affected by things like Charm Person or Dominate Person is the Drow, as the doppleganger is a monstrous humanoid. Of course, even if it weren't, the doppleganger is immune to charms, so charm monster (which is effective against both) won't bother the doppleganger. Furthermore, most of the time spellcasters are "choosy" when it comes to picking their targets, a doppleganger will be mistaken for the "right" person to target far more than drow or half-fiend.

Getting to the save bonuses, and this is really an easy fight. A similarly made character has at least a +6 (with inherent immunities) over the drow and half-fiend when it comes to Will Saves. Those Monstrous Humanoid levels aren't good for much, but they do have Good BAB and Good Reflex and Will saves. While the drow are naturally spell resilient (SR 11 + Char level) they are always 2 levels behind (which is where you got 40%). The half-fiend is in the same boat, but 4 levels behind (and SR 10 + Char level) which is where you got 25%. However, these are the base chances, any bbeg will be at least 1 or 2 levels higher, and if it is a dedicated spellcaster may even have Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, or some bonus to caster levels.

Look at most of the upper level Will-save spells: Charm Monster, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Nightmare, Mass Suggestion, Insanity, Harm, etc. These spells are significantly easier for a doppleganger to make due to his higher will save. You bring up evasion, but the doppleganger is just as likely to make a save as either of the other 2 and most spells offer reflex saves for half damage. Half-damage still hurts (especially when you are 4 levels behind the party), but the doppleganger is the most hardy.

Overall, it just comes down to the type of campaign. In a typical campaign, I think it is a decent option for a mid-level character who wants something different in their session. In a heavy-combat campaign, the doppleganger is under the curve (as are any characters who suffer an ECL, as others have pointed out). In a campaign more focused on social events, or even just a combat-lite group (one who solves problems more than starts fights) the doppleganger is a steal being allowed to come in the party period.

On a side note, I'm a little sad they didn't include a Greater Doppleganger. They were quite a bit more difficult than the regular ones in Baldur's Gate, but I think the doppleganger has the room to add some cool abilities. At the very least I think the regular doppleganger deserves a bonus feat - Persuasuive, Negotiator, or Deceitful would all be decent choices, imo.

Technik
 

Soldarin

First Post
I agree that a doppleganger should work fine at ECL 6 (that is LA +2), but be a bit careful about Detect Thoughts at will. It tends to annoy DMs if used indiscriminately.
 


Iku Rex

Explorer
Technik4 said:
You touch a doppleganger that looks like a knight in shining armor, you touch armor. A rogue with a hat of disguise, you touch leather (unless the rogue had time to preprare said disguise by putting on some full-plate).
Change shape does not alter your clothing or equipment. Disguise self does.

Technik4 said:
It is also dispelled by touch, or interacting with the said disguised person.
Interacting with the illusion (not just the character wearing the hat) gets you a Will save to recognize it as an illusion. It does not dispel it.
 

Simulacrum

First Post
Sorry people I think you miss so many point about what LA's impact on in game.

Just make up a ECL 10 half celestial. Play it for 10 sessions
.
Make a ECL 10 Doppelganger and play it for 10 sessions.

It will be easy. Doperlganger will be completely useless, and probably dead after the first encounter you cant get away by disguising. (AND I CAN ASSURE YOU HE WONT SURVIVE AN ENCOUNTER THAT THE HALF CELESTIAL WOULD SURVIVE WITHOUT A SCRATH)

Also stop comparing them on rogue to rouge basis, Just take Figher or whatever other class, THIS IS AN ACID TEST.
The Doppelganger drops dead through the floor. He'll loose in every instance of what *an acid test* is about.

I did extensice testing. Again, I left out any *roleplaying* things. As they just dont apply to what LA's should be about, because reading the mind of the monster / guy who tears you apart with single blow doesnt help you.

Again Doppelganger LA +2.

Its easy Doppelganger spellcaster : *lol*
Doppelganger Fighter *lol* but at least it doesnt crash through the floor completely
Doppelganger Rogue: Due to the major setback in level you wont do any good really. But at least its a natural choice for the D.

2 Feats, no skill points.

Lets take an half celestial human.

Awesome stats
2 feats at first level, up to 6 when reaching 6th level
More skillpoints, depending on class, an awesome LOT more of skillpoints and skills.

Spellcaster: Nice variant due to the spell like abilities and awesome stats. Makes up for the lack in spell levels (nearly)
Fighter type: WOW, insane performance incredible though the TONS of imunities and resistances. Not to forget the huge amount of spell like abilites. +WINGS.

Rogue type: Just read Fighter and add superiority in skills and skillpoints. Add to that the unbelievable flexibilty and resistance (+evasion, uncanny dodge)


LOL and any of you want to tell me that both are EQUAL?
sure
do your homework, and start over.
 
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