Dragon Disciple - a viable option?

[apsuman]

Here is my (hasitly prepared) comparison of a straight Sorcerer/DD compared to a single classed Half Dragon Sorcerer.

Thinking out loud here...

A Sor 6/DD10 Vs. Sor 13 with the Half-Dragon Template

I chose this combo because it is just about the earliest a sorcerer could take DD.

Both Get:
Natural Armor +4
Breath Weapon
Claw and Bite attacks
Both have the ability to use spell completion items, i.e. scrolls, wands, staves, etc.

Assume human:
Start with the following Ability Scores: 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11

===
The Half-Dragon has the following ability scores:

S : 11 --> 19
D : 14
C : 15 --> 17
I : 13 --> 15
W : 12
Ch : 16 -> 18 --> 21 From adding 1 at levels 4, 8, and 12

The Half Dragon has 13 levels of d6 HD.
6 (for first level)
+ 3.5 * 12 = 42
+ 3 (from con) * 12 = 36
for average HP of 84

Has a BAB of +6/+1
Modified to: +10/+6 (for STR)

Spells Known: 9/5/5/4/4/3/2
Spells Per Day: 6/8/7/7/7/7/4

Save as: +7/+6/+9

Skill points: 20 (1st lev) + 5 * 12 levels = 80

===
The DD has the following:

S : 16 --> 24 --> 26 from adding 1 at level 12 and 16
D : 14
C : 15 -- > 17 -> 18 from adding 1 at level 8
I : 12 --> 14
W : 11
Ch : 13 -->15 --> 16 from adding 1 at level 4

The DD has the following HP:
4 (for first level)
+ 2.5 * 5 = 12.5
+6.5 * 10 = 65
+4 (for con) * 16 = 64
For an average of: 145.5

Has a BAB of +10/+5
Modified to +17/+12

Spells Known: 7/4/2/1
Spells Per Day: 6/7/6/10

Save as: +13/+7/+12

Also, the DD gests blind sense and wings.

Skill points: 16 (first lev) + 4 * 12 levels + 5 * 3 levels = 79 (8 must go to Knowledge Arcana)

So far the differentce boils down to :
60 more HP for the DD
Blindsense 60' for the DD
Wings speed 30' for the DD
Better saves for the DD (by +6/+1/+3)

More spells Known for the Half Dragon
More Spells per day for the Half Dragon


One would assume that the Half dragon would focus on Sorcerer like feats (metamagic, etc.) but the DD could focus on other feats, like Multi-attack, Improved Natual Attack (moving his claw attacks to 1d8), and Fly-by attack.

Also, the spell selection would be entirely different. The DD would probably want enlarge person (esp. w/ImpNatAttack) making his claw and bite attack become 2d6 from his size increase.

For reference with Imp Nat Attack the DD would attack at (I believe):
+17 Bite +15 claw + 15 Claw/+12 Bite +10 Claw +10 claw
A FTR 16 w/24 STR would be:
+23/+18/+13/+8

Personally, I think the DD character very usable character as described here easily wading into melee. The problem is getting to that level. Really, a Sor 6/DD 4 is pretty weak imho.


g!

 

[apsuman]

Man! All that work and not a single comment.

In other words: BUMP.


g!

 

[Nifft]

I think DD is a waste. The template is the way to go. IMC, I made a template that's a little bit weaker (LA +2 & CR +2), but which allows several Prestige Classes to improve its abilities. Thus, the "Half-Dragon" state is a starting point, not an end point.

-- N

PS: Here's my link: http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/templates.shtml

 

[Nifft]

Also, the spell selection would be entirely different. The DD would probably want enlarge person (esp. w/ImpNatAttack) making his claw and bite attack become 2d6 from his size increase.

For reference with Imp Nat Attack the DD would attack at (I believe): +17/+15/+15 Bite/Claw/Claw no iterative attacks for natural attacks
A FTR 16 w/24 STR would be: +23/+18/+13/+8

1) Enlarge Person won't work on a Dragon.

2) +17/+15/+15 is NOT a great attack sequence. A 16th level NPC Fighter has AC 30, a +3 melee weapon (+2 ranged), and 15 Feats! He has a 19 Str (pre-magic), and a melee attack bonus of +23/+18/+13/+8. His damage using a Bastard Sword is 1d10 +4 Str +2 Weapon Spec. +3 Enchantment, and he crits on a 17 (thanks to his Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)). Thus, average damage = 13.5, on a crit it's 27. He can easily afford a Belt of Giant's Strength +4, which would boost his damage and attack rolls by +2 each (for +25/+20/+15/+10), but a friendly spellcaster could hit him with Bull's Strength for the same effect.

3) The above Fighter is from the DMG using the low NPC Wealth table. A PC might have a higher starting strength than 15, and might have earned some divine favors or Wishes (for Inherent bonuses to Strength), and would certainly have more cool stuff than the lowly 16th level NPC Fighter.

Basically, unless your DD takes some tank-class levels and wears armor, he's going to have a very low AC compared to the kind of Fighters he'll face. Once he's in armor, he's no longer a useful spellcaster -- he's a spellcastrato. The DD's natural attacks stink compared to the Fighter's magic weapons & Feats. My advice: play a Monk/Druid with the Half-Dragon template. Magic Fang yourself and go to town.

-- N

 

[apsuman]

Thanks for the reply

Good catch the Enlarge Person. I missed that. (obviously). The DD could research such a spell for him though.

For sure the fighter would have a buttload of feats, that's what they do. But everything else that you listed for your fighter could be duplicated by the DD. Your Magic Armor is replaced by Bracers of Armor. Your Magic Weapon is replaced by and amulet of Mighty Fists. Etc.

I don't the wealth tables with me right now. But the DD AC could be: 10 +2 (dex) + 8 (bracers) +4 (nat arm) + 4 (shield) +2 (cat's grace) = 30

So to compare to your fighter, an amulet of mighty fist +3 and bulls str (or the belt) would raise the MAB of the DD to +22/+20/+20/+17/+15/+15
With Imp Natural Attack, his damage would be 1d6+3(amulet) + 8 (STR) + 2(from the belt) = 16.5
The DD does not need his buddy to cast Bulls Str on him. I suspect it is one of the spells he knows. Or on a scroll.

And the DD might very well have earned some divine favors, wishes for inherent bonus to STR. Just like your fighter.

Your +2 Ranged weapons has to compete with a wand of scorching ray. Or a Wand of Lightning bolts.

My point being that seemingly *EVERYONE* was complaining about the DD as a viable class. All I was trying to do was make one to show to people. I didn;t even know how it would turn out. I think that everyone else wants to think of a typical sorcerer becoming a DD as impractical (which it is), like other multi-classed sorcerers spell selection is important.

I don't have a game right now, but this character seems like a lot of fun to play.

If he were to cast chill touch before the attack (above) the damage increased by 1d6 (for each of his 6 attacks).

If he had fly by attack and were to fly by and attack (once) with a shocking grasp, he would do 1d6+13 (from above) + 5d6 shock damage.

Tis level 16 character would have 7 feats. Assume 2 are are improved natural attack, and fly-by, and there are still enought left for fun things, like Power attack. Think of power attack w/true strike. Getting really cheezy here truestrike+empowered shocking grasp wrapped inside a flyby power attack (for +20) would result in 1d6 + 13 (from above) +(5d6 *1.5) +20 = on average 62.

 

[Andion Isurand]

Ive seen the Dragon Disciple do well combined with Blackguard and 1 level of Assassin... adding the Dragon Disciple's bonus slots to the Blackguard's level 4 spells.

And it can make a nice story plot along the lines of how the Paladin fell after an encounter with his evil draconic ancestors.

[1st 20 lvls] = Blackguard 10/Assassin 1 /Dragon Disciple 9
[post lvl 20] = Dragon Disciple 1/Epic Dragon Disciple

And the BAB hits 16 at level 20... and at 21 the strength bonus increases to +8 to make up the diffierence.

 

[Nifft]

For sure the fighter would have a buttload of feats, that's what they do. But everything else that you listed for your fighter could be duplicated by the DD. Your Magic Armor is replaced by Bracers of Armor. Your Magic Weapon is replaced by and amulet of Mighty Fists. Etc.

Sure, you can replace the CHEAP magic items I listed with the EXPENSIVE AND LESS EFFECTIVE magic items you listed, but they will be more expensive and less effective.

Level 16 PC wealth = 260,000 gp
Level 16 NPC wealth = 77,000 gp

Ftr: +3 Weapon = 18,300 gp (Result: 1d10+3, 19/x2)
DD: +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists = 54,000 gp (Result: 1d6+3, 20/x2)

To compare prices: a +5 Bastard Sword would cost 50,300 gp, less than the +3 Amulet.


Ftr: +5 Full Plate (+13 AC) = 26,650 gp
DD: +8 Bracers (+8 AC) = 64,000 gp

To compare prices: 64,000 gp will buy +8 armor.


Ftr: +5 Large Mithral Shield (+7 AC) = 26,020 gp
DD: ???

Ring of Protection +4 = 32,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +4 = 32,000 gp
Ring of Force Shield (AC +4 for 2-handed Ftr or DD) = 8,500 gp

Remember that the Fighter can be Enlarged, at which point he's doing 2d6 base damage with his Large Bastard Sword.

So to compare to your fighter, an amulet of mighty fist +3 and bulls str (or the belt) would raise the MAB of the DD to +22/+20/+20/+17/+15/+15

Once more, you get EITHER iteritive attacks OR multiple natural attacks. Your analysis is skewed by this error.

Also remember that your DD casting True Strike for that amazing claw-to-the-head attack will take 2 rounds to do a single attack. True Strike is cool, but not unbalanced. In the two rounds that it took your DD to cast True Strike and perform a single attack, the Ftr got off 8 attacks (melee or ranged).

In short, the DD isn't a melee monster -- he's barely melee capable, and then only in special situations. The build I'd consider is Paladin5/Sorc1/DD10.

-- N

 

[apsuman]

Sure, you can replace the CHEAP magic items I listed with the EXPENSIVE AND LESS EFFECTIVE magic items you listed, but they will be more expensive and less effective.

Fair enough. My comment from my last post remains "All I was trying to do was make one to show to people. I didn;t even know how it would turn out. "

There, I even copied my typo.

Thanks for the wealth information, again, I didn't have the wealth table available to me when I posted. Heck, I am impressed that I got as much stuff right as I did.

Wealth information deleted -- thanks again.

Once more, you get EITHER iteritive attacks OR multiple natural attacks. Your analysis is skewed by this error.

Again, fair enough I apologize for the inappropriate comparison.

Also remember that your DD casting True Strike for that amazing claw-to-the-head attack will take 2 rounds to do a single attack. True Strike is cool, but not unbalanced. In the two rounds that it took your DD to cast True Strike and perform a single attack, the Ftr got off 8 attacks (melee or ranged).

Oh man, in my original post I tried to do two things, a) point out that this move would be cheezy, and clearly demonstrate that it was one attack. Let me reread my post -- hey I did those things.

On a less cheesy note, the maneuverablity of flight is a great thing to have. You fighter has to expose himself to combat in order to do all the damage you have listed -- that is what they do wade in and swing. The DD can stay aloft and do things from afar until HE is ready to engage.

Spell and feat selection is important too. As are the appropriate magic items. Scrolls of useful spells, wands, etc.

In short, the DD isn't a melee monster -- he's barely melee capable, and then only in special situations. The build I'd consider is Paladin5/Sorc1/DD10.

-- N

I don't think I called him a melee monster. I think I said this character could be realy fun to play. I stand by that statement.

g!

 

[Tidus4444]

As a sorcerer, it is very bad. AS a Sorc 1/ Barbarin or Fighter X/ DD X it's very good.
Also, I hadn't thought of the cosmopolitan feat. That's a good idea.

 

[Archer]

An improvement to the dragon disciple would be to use the new d20 concept of adding caster level without adding spells known.

On the levels where you get a spell, add a full caster level. On the levels where you get spells and on the levels you don't, you get an effective caster level for purposes of penetrating SR, duration, effect etc.

When they nerfed the class by getting rid of enlarge they really needed to put a little more thought into the class.

If you go full spell caster, you'll be slightly behind in number of spells per day and be marginally better at combat than a pure class arcane caster. You have no armor proficiencies and limited weapon proficiencies.

If you go full combat, you'll be slightly better than a pure melee class but not as good as those who chose better prestige classes. At 20th level you'll have 4th level spells which will not have a significant effect on play much as if you were a spellsword except the spellsword can wear the heaviest armor and you still have to choose between armor and spells.