Dragon Heist TPK

[cmad1977]

If the villain is really that much more powerful than the PCs nothing could stop him from leaving except for the DM.

 

[GameOgre]

If the villain is really that much more powerful than the PCs nothing could stop him from leaving except for the DM.

Welcome to D&D 5E! The edition where they flattened the math so that lower level monsters and pc's could still threaten higher level targets. The bad guy just is not hard to beat. Low AC and although he has a lot of hit points verse 1st level characters, not enough to hang for more than one round without the very real possibility to death.

The reason the guy is the CR he has is the abilities he has!

 

[robus]

The Fact of the matter is you do not put a foe 7 CR's higher against the party and expect everything to be fine. Not at level 1 at any rate. Yes the foe wasn't trying to kill the monster but you cant say the same for the other way around!

It's just bad design.

So you're claiming that the designers put a "gotcha" encounter for level 1 characters? There was no foreshadowing? No "reputation" hints given to the players (no roll needed because the Waterdeep NPCs with dangerous reputations are generally avoided by the regular folks of which the PCs are recently members ).

I just don't understand how the PCs went into this encounter guns blazing if the reputation of the NPC has been foreshadowed? Away from books at the moment, but does the text say "Don't let the PCs know what/who they're about to encounter!"?

 

[S'mon]

Just like the way Frodo charged in to Mordor and killed Sauron.

Or not.

D&D has never been just about that.

Uhm. 4e?

 

[Blue]

Sounds like your party learned a valuable lesson, just because someone may need killing, doesn't mean it's up to the party to do the killing.

If the adventure doesn't telegraph this heavily, then a single-round TPK so there is no chance to reverse and get out is straight up bad design.

And in general, a foe running telegraphs "I don't want to fight you", of which the most common reason is they think they'll lose. So it needed to be unambiguously well shown to turn around that expectation.

 

[Blue]

I guess that in my games, the players know to be careful. To me, Curse of Strahd is even "worse" (or better, depending on your POV) in this regard. A misjudged encounter early on almost resulted in a TPK and set the tone for the rest of the adventure, too the point that even foes they can not mop the floor with--they will be very careful about engaging. They don't take things for granted.

"My players know that if they are killing foes, and the leader goes to escape, that they absolutely should never attempt to give chase -- that being the minimum level of 'careful' because they should expect villains who flee are able to one round TPK so if they engage there will be no chance for second thoughts."

That's tongue-in-cheek, I know you don't mean it like that. But someone trying to run is telegraphing that they don't want to fight, usually because they might/would lose. In this case, the villain the OP mentioned was so overpowering that they didn't even have a chance for second thoughts because it was over in a single round. I don't know the combat, but unless they had some sort of legendary or lair actions so they went at multiple points in the initiative, that means the party was wiped out in one turn, with no chance to see the foe at work and then reevaluate.

 

[Gradine]

Bodies are a messy and bring too much unwanted attention. The villains basically universally want PC's thwarted but not killed. PC's are much more likely to regain consciousness somewhere else bereft of some (or all) of their coin and/or possessions. Note that the PC's are also supposed to be warned about wanton slaughter, killing, and bringing unwanted attention from the law on themselves.

The book literally says these things in multiple places. The book gives you multiple reasons, opportunities and tidbits of advice on how to handle TPKs that don't involve killing the PCs.

It should be noted that that particular encounter ends in what is essentially a dead end in the PC's investigation, which has a cooling off period for a level of so as the PCs are off doing stuff for factions and the city before the main plot kicks in. There are hardly even any consequences for the PCs failing in that encounter. They might wake up in a heap in a darkened alley, find their way back to the hideout in question and find it abandoned, this doesn't really break the plot at all, just hurts their pride.

If your PCs end up dead as a result of this encounter then that is absolutely not the fault of the adventure.

 

[Reynard]

If the adventure doesn't telegraph this heavily, then a single-round TPK so there is no chance to reverse and get out is straight up bad design.

And in general, a foe running telegraphs "I don't want to fight you", of which the most common reason is they think they'll lose. So it needed to be unambiguously well shown to turn around that expectation.

Alternatively, the group could have talked this stuff out before starting play, with the DM explaining that this was not a "kill everything that moves" kind of adventure and the players buying in. Things as described by the OP only happen when there is a failure of communication about the intent and expectations of the GM and the players.

 

[5ekyu]

If the villain is really that much more powerful than the PCs nothing could stop him from leaving except for the DM.

Iirc the villain has plane shift no components so... Yeah... Staying and killing was a choice.

 

[Blue]

Alternatively, the group could have talked this stuff out before starting play, with the DM explaining that this was not a "kill everything that moves" kind of adventure and the players buying in. Things as described by the OP only happen when there is a failure of communication about the intent and expectations of the GM and the players.

Something reasonable would be: There are things more powerful than you, play close attention to my descriptions. And if you find yourself in a tough battle, retreat might be in order.

But the encounter would still be be 100% wrong - it's telegraphed weaker (running), and there was no opportunity to realize they were in a rough battle and retreat since it was a one turn kill.

If the DM should have communicated that "Any encounter, even ones telegraphed as weaker than the party, could be instantly lethal for a one round TPK so there is no chance to revise based on knowledge."

Well... then don't expect me to enter into ANY fight unless forced.

So if you tell me that the rest of the module is set up so that I can progress through it avoiding every fight then I'll go for that level of paranoia. Otherwise the module is still badly designed.