Dragon Skills

[Grayswandir]

Very nice. I'd heard of the character generator, but I didn't know you had one for dragons. And here I was doing it by hand (the very reason I started this thread!). Might I ask how you select skills and feats for the dragons? As far as I can tell from preliminary investigation, it looks like you've got just one list of Feats and Skills that you apply to all dragons.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Sure you can ask.

At this point, it just applies a single list to both skills and feats. Mechanics are in the works for applying more feats (and skills?) to the list, more or less randomly; this has taken a backseat to adding OA dragons and making another generator entirely.

If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Grayswandir]

Well, if you're interested, you can look here for some of what I've done so far. I've got Black, Blue, Green, and Red dragons posted there, with Feats, Skills, and Spell selections. I've also got White done, but I haven't posted it and don't plan to, since my website is more or less in hiatus right now. I have separate lists for each dragon, based on the monster entry in the MM and on the details in AEG's Dragons. And yes, that's a lot of work.

So while I like your generator, and random Feats / Skills sounds very interesting and useful, I probably won't use it for chromatic dragons. I might use it for metallics, or I might go ahead and write those up myself also. However, I do not plan on doing the Gem dragons or any other non-MM dragon (too much work for a creature I probably won't ever use), so what I would really find useful is a wider selection of dragons. I notice you already have the Gems done, and that's great. The Lung dragons are probably what I would most like to see right now, and then even more dragons - are the third-party dragons available to you for use? WotC might in the future release a program to do what you're doing for all of *their* dragons, but if you include *everyone's* dragons you'll be on top of the game.

So what's this other generator? (Wow, I never thought I would hijack my own thread like this.)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Nothing to see here...

 

[Grayswandir]

Believe it or not, Hide. And Move Silently, for that matter. I was amazed to how many dragons I gave these skills. Of course, I think all of the Chromatics (with the exception of the Red) are described as lying in wait and ambushing. Blacks lie buried in the swamp and flee to hide when they take damage. Blues and Whites lie buried in the sand and ice, respectively. Greens like to sneak around, following and observing the party.

Intimidate is one skill I was rather surprised to see designated cross-class for dragons. Of course, being dragons, I suppose they don't really need it. But I gave it to the Reds anyway.

According to AEG's Dragons, Blues are the historians and lawyers of the dragons. So I gave them Knowledge (History). For Greens, I played up their diplomacy, as well as a little nature knowledge. Dragons makes Blacks out to be practically Druids, so I gave them Knowledge (Nature) and Wilderness Lore.

Concentration I gave to every dragon pretty much as soon as it could cast spells. It is a very useful ability. Sense Motive is another very useful skill, and another I was surprised to find cross-class.

So all in all,
Useful skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge.
Useful cross-class skills: Intimidate, Sense Motive.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I've replied to your email.

 

[Wolf72]

Your interpretation is exactly what I *wanted* the MM to say, and what I could not in good conscience rule that it said.

The text reads "All dragons start with 6 skill points per Hit Die, plus bonus points equal to Intelligence modifier X HD".

So an Ancient white dragon (30 HD, Int mod +2) has 6 skill points per Hit Die (6*30=180) plus bonus points equal to its Intelligence modifier per Hit Die (2*30 = 60). So a total of 240 skill points, three of which per hit die are spent on required skills, leaving (3*30=90, 240-90=150) 150 skill points left to spend. Plus the 30 bonus ranks of Spellcraft.

Note that the MM does *not* say that all dragons start with (6+Int mod) skill points and gain (6+Int mod) skill points per Hit Die beyond the first, which would imply your interpretation. I urge you to look at the semi-official stats I linked to above - that dragon has skill points calculated similarly to the above, i.e. retroactive skill point gain for Intelligence increase.

This goes along with the free ranks in Spellcraft - even per your table, an Adult white dragon has 0 free ranks, while a Mature Adult suddenly has 21 free ranks. Retroactive skill point gain has exactly the same effect - a Mature Adult white dragon, upon gaining an Intelligence modifier of +1 (previously +0), gains an additional number of skill points equal to its Hit Dice. While Spellcraft as a "special ability" does make sense, the two seem to go together mechanically.

Also note that a Mature Adult white dragon is technically a different monster from an Adult white dragon - or at least it's given stats as if it were. A Mature Adult is *not* a hit-die advanced Adult, which would follow normal rules for HD advancement (i.e. no retroactive skill points).

I would *like* to disallow retroactive skill points for dragons. But the more I look at the book, the more convinced I become that "dragons are special".

don't disagree with ya, just felt like doing the actual math. And since I went and did it for all 10 dragons I'm just gonna keep the list and use that.

Would point out that it does say 6 per HD.

p11 MM says what you do: starting base skill points
p13 MM says +6 (+int mod) per extra HD

so it would be perfectly fair to say that you should calculate it out ... I bet WotC was just being lazy ...

hell I would have too! My brain was going freakin' buggy doing all that math! Nothing complicated, x3 here, subtract here, add in int bonus here ... but after 10 dragons all with different HD and int scores (sometimes not in an orderly manner some have int's of 14, 14, then 16 ... some go 22, 24, 26 without doing the same score twice ...)

but yeah they are special, and in the big picture +/- that amount of skill points isn't really gonna make a difference.

 

[Grayswandir]

Right, for creature advancement. But dragons only follow the rules for creature advancement within any given age category. Dragons of different age categories are treated by the MM as if they were different creatures entirely.

Incidentally, I agree that WotC was probably just being lazy and that dragons shouldn't get retroactive skill points. Had I done all that work to figure out their skill points non-retroactively (highly commendable, btw), I'd stick to my guns too. I'm just trying to nail down what the actual rules are, before I go around house ruling them.

 

[Wolf72]

tom-ah-to, tom-A-to

either way I don't think that many skill points are going to make a difference ... either the dragon eats you ... or the dragon rips you to shreds, you choose

might as well just give them the retro points, IT IS MUCH EASIER TO CALCULATE! and takes far less time to do.

 

[Grayswandir]

Agreed.