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Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing. Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which...

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Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Gortack (Orcs).jpg

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
okay, it does to me.

If I sat down to watch the new Quantum Leap and it did a 1 for 1 of the series premier of the original Quantum Leap I would hate the protagonist. When I started my rewatch of the 80's version I was showing it to my fiancé who is many years younger then me and she was put off by several things that Sam (the protagonist) just did. I have seen her enjoy the newer one much more (except this week cause she hates the exorcist and this episode is based on that story).

Out of date isn't just inclusivity.
The new Quantum Leap is in serious danger of being canceled because it isn't as fun as the original. Which is a shame, because I do find it interesting.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Right, right, right.

That's what I don't get. It's fundamentally a subjective opinion argument, so if we discount that, there's little of substance left.
I believe what GMforPowergamers is getting at is that everyone here is making an argument which, whether overtly or covertly, extends beyond subjectivity. E.g., my frustration with the "oh we couldn't possibly, we didn't include all the stuff Tolkien wrote about them" excuse is, very specifically, that it is trying to ground a subjective personal choice on the authors' part (something with zero normative force, but also which cannot really be argued with) in an objective quality of the work. Again, it's that idea of "oh we couldn't possibly do that." A disclaiming of making a choice at all--because even if they'd wanted to make orcs (they didn't, but hypothetically if they had) it would be impossible to do so because you can't include something rooted in Tolkien without bringing in all that extra context and baggage that isn't part of Dragonlance. Yet they were comfortable porting in enormous chunks of Tolkien's work wholesale, including things lifted directly from it, not just mediated through the filter of "oh well that's just a thing D&D did." D&D doesn't have "the Kinslaying," Dragonlance and Tolkien's legendarium do.

Hence, for me, it doesn't matter if they also made motions in the direction of "we had our reasons, this was an authorial choice." In saying what they said, they are trying to pass off the subjective as the objective, that something which was fully and completely "we just chose not to because it seemed better that way" is being re-framed as though it were actually "well we really had no choice at all, there wasn't any way we could have done it differently." I dislike sophistry of this kind intensely.

Like I've said, I would have no problem if their only argument had been, "We just thought elves sounded cool, and wanted to tell a story centered on dragons. Draconians came out of that dragon-centered story, and they filled up the niche orcs would fill, so we went with draconians." They were not making only that argument. They did say other things, sure. But they were also making a "we couldn't possibly" argument. And the fact is, no, they really could possibly. They just chose not to.

I "care" what other people do at their tables only in the senses that (1) I wish other people well and thus hope that they do things which I consider conducive to good gaming, and (2) I like to hear what others do, even if it radically differs from my approaches, because that's how I learn new things. I "couldn't care less" in the sense of wanting to make people play any specific way. But I do think it's important to encourage behaviors I consider constructive and discourage behaviors I consider destructive.
 


I believe what GMforPowergamers is getting at is that everyone here is making an argument which, whether overtly or covertly, extends beyond subjectivity. E.g., my frustration with the "oh we couldn't possibly, we didn't include all the stuff Tolkien wrote about them" excuse is, very specifically, that it is trying to ground a subjective personal choice on the authors' part (something with zero normative force, but also which cannot really be argued with) in an objective quality of the work.
very well stated. Thank you.
Yeah, were my opinion (and yeah this is all IMO) comes with a balancing act of 'i may be wrong' i not only keep being told i am most assuredly wrong but that evidence PROVES there opinion is right.
Again, it's that idea of "oh we couldn't possibly do that." A disclaiming of making a choice at all--because even if they'd wanted to make orcs (they didn't, but hypothetically if they had) it would be impossible to do so because you can't include something rooted in Tolkien without bringing in all that extra context and baggage that isn't part of Dragonlance. Yet they were comfortable porting in enormous chunks of Tolkien's work wholesale, including things lifted directly from it, not just mediated through the filter of "oh well that's just a thing D&D did." D&D doesn't have "the Kinslaying," Dragonlance and Tolkien's legendarium do.
also nicely said... much better then I have.
Like I've said, I would have no problem if their only argument had been, "We just thought elves sounded cool, and wanted to tell a story centered on dragons. Draconians came out of that dragon-centered story, and they filled up the niche orcs would fill, so we went with draconians." They were not making only that argument. They did say other things, sure. But they were also making a "we couldn't possibly" argument. And the fact is, no, they really could possibly. They just chose not to.
right/
I "care" what other people do at their tables only in the senses that (1) I wish other people well and thus hope that they do things which I consider conducive to good gaming, and (2) I like to hear what others do, even if it radically differs from my approaches, because that's how I learn new things. I "couldn't care less" in the sense of wanting to make people play any specific way. But I do think it's important to encourage behaviors I consider constructive and discourage behaviors I consider destructive.
I also feel the 'at our table' gets over played when most of us are playing with friends and agree or meet in the middle with them... so it isnt about a table or even 10 random tables... it's about what the main company publishes.
 




Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
D&D doesn't have "the Kinslaying,"
Yes it does. It's default elf history for D&D elves is to kinslay each other which results in surface elves and drow. You keep making the claim that they are importing Tolkien, but have yet to show how they aren't just importing D&D stuff. The best you've done, which isn't anything at all, is show how both Quenya(a language) and Qualinesti(a race) begin with Q.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
A disclaiming of making a choice at all--because even if they'd wanted to make orcs (they didn't, but hypothetically if they had) it would be impossible to do so because you can't include something rooted in Tolkien without bringing in all that extra context and baggage that isn't part of Dragonlance. Yet they were comfortable porting in enormous chunks of Tolkien's work wholesale, including things lifted directly from it, not just mediated through the filter of "oh well that's just a thing D&D did." D&D doesn't have "the Kinslaying," Dragonlance and Tolkien's legendarium do.
Perhaps we should actually investigate what this "Kinslaying" is rather than just assume it's lifted from Tolkien. Its roots are more a dynastic split over reactions to encroaching humans rather than anything present in Tolkien. So, "porting enormous chunks of Tolkien's work wholesale" is a gross exaggeration.
 

mamba

Legend
Other than dooming the quest to fail and the world to unending darkness anyway. But that's not much of a change. We really didn't NEED the hobbits' resistance to the ring's corruption. ;)
no we didn’t, could have been a particularly stubborn dwarf too.

There is nothing that says only hobbits can possibly ever be resistant to it, it simply was something the author decided
 

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