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Drops to 0 hit points triggers

pippenainteasy

First Post
So I was looking at the entry for Fearwracks.

The trigger for fragment of immortality (FoI) is: Fearwrack drops to 0 hit points. Effect is: The fearwrack is removed from play until the start of its next turn then reappears with 1/4 hit points and no effects.

So my question is, what if the Fearwrack drops to -1 hit points? Does FoI not trigger? What if it drops to it's negative bloodied value? Does it die immediately and FoI doesn't trigger?

The reason I ask is because some other entries in the MM explicitly say "if Monster drops to 0 hit points OR BELOW. For example, Lolth's discorporate rule is "drops to (bloodied value) or below".
 

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DracoSuave

First Post
Drops to 0 is often used as shorthand for Drops to 0 or below.

Don't get so technical with the rules that something like this throws you off. I know I do on these forums... but I don't at my table. Does it look like it means 'when it dies?' cause that's what it's trying to do.
 

wlmartin

Explorer
So I was looking at the entry for Fearwracks.

The trigger for fragment of immortality (FoI) is: Fearwrack drops to 0 hit points. Effect is: The fearwrack is removed from play until the start of its next turn then reappears with 1/4 hit points and no effects.

So my question is, what if the Fearwrack drops to -1 hit points? Does FoI not trigger? What if it drops to it's negative bloodied value? Does it die immediately and FoI doesn't trigger?

The reason I ask is because some other entries in the MM explicitly say "if Monster drops to 0 hit points OR BELOW. For example, Lolth's discorporate rule is "drops to (bloodied value) or below".

It would be "or below" - it would seem a little bit silly otherwise.
I think it was one of those common sense type rules.

Since monsters (as a rule) do not have the ability to retain negative hp and are considered DEAD at 0 not dying, the argument is fairly moot.

There would be no reason to say "or below" since monsters don't have a below.

It is very rare that you will ever drop a monster to exactly 0 hp. If I had time I would create a 1st lvl toon, give him a basic weapon and find a random monster (say a kobold) and just pump the stats into a formula. I would have them fight until the kobold is above 0hp and see what it takes to drop a monster to 0 on the nose and how often it happens.

But I dont have the time ;)
 

DracoSuave

First Post
It would be "or below" - it would seem a little bit silly otherwise.
I think it was one of those common sense type rules.

Since monsters (as a rule) do not have the ability to retain negative hp and are considered DEAD at 0 not dying, the argument is fairly moot.

There would be no reason to say "or below" since monsters don't have a below.

It is very rare that you will ever drop a monster to exactly 0 hp. If I had time I would create a 1st lvl toon, give him a basic weapon and find a random monster (say a kobold) and just pump the stats into a formula. I would have them fight until the kobold is above 0hp and see what it takes to drop a monster to 0 on the nose and how often it happens.

But I dont have the time ;)

It's not that hard to figure out.

If x is the chance if it being a critical hit, d is the number of unique totals of damage dice for a normal attack, and c is the number of unique totals of damage dice for a critical hit, then the total chance of a killing blow getting exactly zero is equal to:

1/(1-x)d+xc.
 

wlmartin

Explorer
It's not that hard to figure out.

If x is the chance if it being a critical hit, d is the number of unique totals of damage dice for a normal attack, and c is the number of unique totals of damage dice for a critical hit, then the total chance of a killing blow getting exactly zero is equal to:

1/(1-x)d+xc.

That may be the formula but it still doesnt determine what the actual chance is.
My plan would be to create a random monster, run that and see

Although the chance would be a massive variable due to the disparity between Different player stats vs Different monster stats vs Circumstances... however it may give an idea of the likliehood which is all i was after
 

pippenainteasy

First Post
So what about the Bloodletting Soul Trait in the Demonomicom?

Aura 2: An ally in the aura that is reduced to 0 hit points makes a melee attack as an immediate interrupt.

Does this mean an ally within 2 will immediately interrupt being reduced to 0 hit points? In other words, never die?
 

wlmartin

Explorer
So what about the Bloodletting Soul Trait in the Demonomicom?

Aura 2: An ally in the aura that is reduced to 0 hit points makes a melee attack as an immediate interrupt.

Does this mean an ally within 2 will immediately interrupt being reduced to 0 hit points? In other words, never die?

Why would it never die?

If an ally is reduced to 0 hp, it gets a basic melee attack as an interupt, after that it still dies.

Or am I missing something?
 

DracoSuave

First Post
That may be the formula but it still doesnt determine what the actual chance is.
My plan would be to create a random monster, run that and see

Although the chance would be a massive variable due to the disparity between Different player stats vs Different monster stats vs Circumstances... however it may give an idea of the likliehood which is all i was after

No it isn't.

There's only one random element involved in the final hit: The dice rolled to deal damage.

Events that are not final hits are not relevant to the question.

Let's say your monster is 8 hit points away from death, and you're attacking with a longsword, and have +4 to damage, and you hit. The chance of bringing him to exactly 0 is 1 in 8, because there's only one outcome that can do that. If you have +5 to damage? 1 in 8. If you have +3 to damage? 1 in 8.

If he has 1000 hit points to start? 1 in 8. If you have +34 to attack? 1 in 8.

You don't count attacks that don't hit because they don't deal damage, and therefore are not killing blows. The math is surprisingly simple.
 

wlmartin

Explorer
No it isn't.

There's only one random element involved in the final hit: The dice rolled to deal damage.

Events that are not final hits are not relevant to the question.

Let's say your monster is 8 hit points away from death, and you're attacking with a longsword, and have +4 to damage, and you hit. The chance of bringing him to exactly 0 is 1 in 8, because there's only one outcome that can do that. If you have +5 to damage? 1 in 8. If you have +3 to damage? 1 in 8.

If he has 1000 hit points to start? 1 in 8. If you have +34 to attack? 1 in 8.

You don't count attacks that don't hit because they don't deal damage, and therefore are not killing blows. The math is surprisingly simple.

Yes, I wasn't arguing that a monster with 8 hp is going to have a 1 in 8 chance of being dropped to 0 hp... I was proposing that since the variables below are never constant, determining the likelihood that it would happen in a random encounter is hard.

Variables include
Player Weapon
Player Modifiers
Monster HP
Monster Modifiers

The only thing you could do is round up all of the Level 1 monsters and find an average number to determine HP

Say it was 30HP for example

You then would need to find the average weapon dice that a player would have based on all possible options (which would mean finding an average for each available class and then averaging this out across all classes)

Say it was a D8 for example

You would then need to determine what modifiers a typical player would have... this could most possibly be determined by picking the most appropriate build for each class (high str for a fighter etc etc) and then take the average + Damage modifier for each and perform an average

Say it was +6

In this example you could say that the average damage was 1D8+6 (7-14, 11 avg)

With an average monster hp of 30, the first hit would bring it to 19, next to 8, - with 8 as the final hit value, and the damage die performing at 7-14, the chances of dropping the monster are 1 in 7

Now, I havent done the above research and would imagine it would be quite difficult to do it... Not to mention that an average cross section of each level would need to be performed as well as consulting feats and other modifiers that give you bonuses to damage.

You could perform the test on a 1st lvl fighter vs a 1st lvl Kobold if you wanted to, however if someone asks the question

"What is the chance you could drop a monster to exactly 0hp" the circumstances surrounding what may or may not happen in any given encounter are so vast that calculating this with a simple formula is not possible

If you ask

"What is the chance that a monster at 5hp will drop to 0 when I am wielding a D12 + 3 weapon?" - You CAN answer this one since you can take 2 comparable variables and do the sum (which in this case would be 1 in 15)
 

DracoSuave

First Post
The thing is, EVERY outcome leading to where a weapon is in range to deal a death blow leads to the 1-in-8 scenario.

So, you take n outcomes leading to the 1 in 8 scenario, multiply them by 1/8, then divide by the total number of outcomes... which is n.

n(1/8)/n

=1/8
 

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