DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[DrSpunj]

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm finishing up my fellowship training this month, start my first real career job on July 1st, and am currently in Philadelphia at a Sleep Medicine Society meeting.

I haven't messed with ouini's stuff much at all. Still trying to wrap my head around the Mana system you two have cooked up. Honestly, since I'm sticking with the AU magic system, I haven't had a whole lot of ambition to figure out whether your Mana system is balanced or not. It's still on my list, but keeps getting beat out by things with a higher priority.

I have pitched the Classless Generation System at several of my potential players for the summer campaign, though, and they are mostly pretty excited about it. I say mostly because one individual hasn't gotten back to me and wasn't impressed with AU when he flipped through it at the store. I'm not sure if he's checked out the spreadsheets or not, but I'm waiting to see what questions he has.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[SSquirrel]

I haven't messed with ouini's stuff much at all. Still trying to wrap my head around the Mana system you two have cooked up. Honestly, since I'm sticking with the AU magic system, I haven't had a whole lot of ambition to figure out whether your Mana system is balanced or not. It's still on my list, but keeps getting beat out by things with a higher priority.

See I don't see how it could NOT be balanced. The mana system I proposed is the exact total of your spells from the book and 0 spelsl don't cost ya anything. *shrug* Of course, using the AU system instead of standard means no Magic Missle which would be the biggest potential abuser heh.

Hagen

 

[DrSpunj]

See I don't see how it could NOT be balanced. The mana system I proposed is the exact total of your spells from the book and 0 spells don't cost ya anything.

Right, but I have a problem with your underlying assumption; namely that the Core system is balanced in the first place! That's most of the reason I'm switching to the AU magic system, because it removes a great number of variables that I'm anxious to get rid of.

It's very difficult to argue (for or against, IMO) that Clerics deserve better HD, BAB, Weapon & Armor Profs, Divine Armored Casting, etc. because their Divine spells suck so much compared to Wizard/Sorcerer spells. Once you start throwing in how Divine casters need to pray at nearly the same time every day while Arcane casters must get 8 good hours of rest to memorize spells, Divine casters have access to entire spell lists while Wizards & Sorcerers get 2 free each level, and other major differences...well, it's just too much for me.

It certainly gives some distinction between the classes, but my whole system is about leveling the playing field and scrapping those same distinctions. You've come up with an excellent mana conversion of the Core magic system, I just believe that the underlying Core magic system is flawed.

Regardless, I'm glad it works for you and the system ouini's working on. There's certainly room for a number of different ways to do things. After all, I've only seen, read or heard about a very small fraction of DMs who run everything "by the book". To me this is just your version of a personal House Rule. <shrug>

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[DrSpunj]

Amen. But I think if the GM manages to keep any fraction other than "1/2" out of the player's sight, he's doing pretty darned well.

I've taken this to heart this weekend and reworked much of my original sheet. I've also redone the layout a bit making it much easier to change values across all 20 levels for any given class (you can now use the "Fill Right" command!) and added some Subtotal and Balance calculations to my sheet to help keep me on track with viable arrangements. For now I'm just focusing on the Core classes but things have worked out well enough that I'm going to go ahead and do the AU classes next.

Essentially, I removed all the fractions. All of them. I did this using a method similar to that which we developed for Saves. For BAB you get +1 free at even levels, just like the Core Poor BAB progression. At odd levels you can get +1 for 4 CPs. If you want a 3/4 progression like a Cleric or Rogue you'll want to buy five +1 upgrades at levels 3, 7, 11, 15 & 19. All those wanting a Full progression will, of course, have to pay up at every odd level. Your BAB can't increase by more than +1 at any given level.

Same thing with the Defense bonus. Everyone now gets +1 Defense at every 3rd level (3, 6, 9, etc.) and can upgrade at other levels by +1 for 2 CPs. Your Defense bonus maxes out at your BAB or Reflex save, whichever is higher. Even though it's essentially freeform (you could max Defense at +20!) I went with 4 levels of Defense:

• +6 for Sorcerers & Wizards
• +10 for Clerics, Fighters & Paladins
• +13 for Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Rangers & Rogues
• +17 for Monks (since Defense has absorbed his AC Bonus ability)

Keep in mind that this Defense bonus does not stack with Armor bonuses to AC. You use whichever is most beneficial at the time, however, you subtract your Armor Check Penalty from this Defense bonus.

Finally, I split Feats into 3 distinct categories, each with its own cost.

• The most expensive are still Base feats at 5 CPs. These represent most Combat feats and/or those at the start of a feat chain. Examples include Sneak Attack, Rage, Fast Movement, etc.
• Next up are Expansion feats at 4 CPs. These feats are further up a feat chain that you've already started with the prerequisite Base feat. Examples here include increased Sneak Attack damage; increased number of Rages/day along with Greater Rage, Tireless Rage, etc.; Wild Shape - Size, Type & Elemental forms; etc.
• Finally, the cheapest category remains General feats at 3 CPs. This is strictly for non-combat feats and abilites. Examples include Track, Trackless Step, some Bardic songs, a Paladin's Remove Disease ability, etc.

EDIT: I also reconfigured all the classes down to 11 CPs per level after 1st. I realized that those 20 extra points were basically just giving nearly every class 4 Bonus Feats to play with and that I wasn't comfortable with the power level that high. This way there are fewer changes overall and it's quite a bit closer to Core's classes. I still need 24 pts at 1st level, so that didn't change.

EDIT 2: I grouped all the files together for easy downloading in Post #155. Thanks!

Please share any comments you might have.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[doghead]

Hey Dr Spunj.

I've downloaded the speadsheet but can't open it (old Mac user). Is it possible to understand the workings from the thread alone?

 

[DrSpunj]

I've downloaded the speadsheet but can't open it (old Mac user). Is it possible to understand the workings from the thread alone?

Hey, doghead!

I'm using a Mac (G3 B&W), too, and compressed it with Aladdin's DropZip 6.5, but I created the sheet using Mac Office (Excel) X (I'm only at 10.1.5). If you're using anything earlier than that I'm not sure what to do. I "Saved As" the file into an older type of workbook, so try downloading the one attached to this message and see how it goes.

As far as understanding the basics, I just reread through this entire thread over the last few days. I think if you take the time to do that (if you haven't already) a lot of it will be clearer, and I'd be happy to try and fill you in on some specifics and answer any questions you might have.

If you're still having problems with the older file type let me know how old you need it. If it's the zip that's giving you trouble I'd be happy to email you a .sit file to try, but the boards won't let me attach those.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[doghead]

Hey DrSpunj

Stuffit works like a charm. Its the file I can't open. I'm on 0S 9, and the spreadsheet application I have won't recognise the excel file. I tried changing the file type, but its still won't open it even if it recognises it.

Oh well. Don't sweat it. I think that only a major hard/software upgrade is going to make it doable at this point. Thanks for trying.

I keep working through the thread as I have time. Hopefully I will be able to pull together a rough and reading outline. Thats all I am looking for really - its only for a homebrew idea I'm tossing around. I'm not that fussed about balance issues.

the head of the dog.

 

[ouini]

Looking at it now. Of course I like the shift to an a la carte aspect for BAB and saves, since that's what I do and I'm a shameless egoist. No really, good job, avoiding fractions seems the way to go.

The Intro and Notes sections fully explain the document (very 'FAQ'), except for the spell-level calculator being missing (is the original creator going to copyright?). That bit makes me nervous for the same reason fractions did (player unease), but to be fair, I'm sure my mana system is as big or a bigger put-off to those used to the spells-by-table method.

Great explanation of feats at the end. With a spreadsheet, can you put no-prereq feats alphabetically in the first column, and feats based off of those in the second column, etc, like in the PHB? That always seemed to be a handy layout, to me. But then I know nothing of spreadsheets.

I'll have to play around a bit with numbers to see if I like the class balance.

 

[DrSpunj]

Looking at it now. Of course I like the shift to an a la carte aspect for BAB and saves, since that's what I do and I'm a shameless egoist. No really, good job, avoiding fractions seems the way to go.

Egoist!

Where we still differ is my underlying "Commoner" method. That is, if you spend no CPs in my system you end with a Commoner in every way, shape & form. I like that as a baseline. CPs are for heroes; not just anybody!

The Intro and Notes sections fully explain the document (very 'FAQ'), except for the spell-level calculator being missing (is the original creator going to copyright?). That bit makes me nervous for the same reason fractions did (player unease), but to be fair, I'm sure my mana system is as big or a bigger put-off to those used to the spells-by-table method.

It put me off but only because I like Tables. The formulas aren't difficult but they don't really change much either, so putting everything into Table form seems "right" to me, somehow. I didn't include the spell-calculator because that's spread over 6 sheets in it's own file currently (and I didn't want to overwhelm anyone by handing them an Excel workbook with 10 separate sheets!). I've already linked to it on the previous page of this thread and I'll be able to provide my own players with it. I did finally get an email back from the guy who came up with the underlying BMP and spell tables. His email answered a couple questions I had and included some helpful material (including the more aggressive tables that I won't be using but still wanted to look over) but he didn't mention this thread at all. Said he'd had several other people contact him about the material so there doesn't seem to be any kind of copyright to worry about. My original email to him included the URL to this thread but I have no way of knowing if he's stopped by (or even posted) here.

Great explanation of feats at the end. With a spreadsheet, can you put no-prereq feats alphabetically in the first column, and feats based off of those in the second column, etc, like in the PHB? That always seemed to be a handy layout, to me. But then I know nothing of spreadsheets.

I'm going to do as a handout for my players because I really find those tables useful as well. I just don't want to go to that much work until I'm pretty much done with the Prereqs and things. I spent some time recently looking over the d20 Modern Feat & Talent trees, and have Wulf's Grim Tales on order (should be arriving today or tomorrow!) because his book revamps those. If I like them better I'll probably rework my feat prereqs similarly. If/when I finish such a document of the feats I'll be sure to post it here so you can take a look.

I'll have to play around a bit with numbers to see if I like the class balance.

Please do! I felt a whole lot better by increasing the cost of Expansion feats to 4 CPs AND dropping the number of CPs per level to 11 (after 24 at 1st). Doing both of those removed a great number of Bonus Feats that pretty much every class had laying around. While I'm still adding a number of them for certain classes overall things are quite a bit closer to Core.

I'm probably going to keep Weapon & Armor Proficiency group feats, Skill feats and Item Creation feats as General Feats. That means Proficiency groups only cost 1 CP at 1st level and go up to 3 CPs at all later levels. That may seem pretty expensive but in the grand scheme of things it's still substantially better than Core (where a whole feat gets you one single Martial or Exotic weapon).

The other thing I'm still going back and forth on are the Core "Extra" feats. Extra Rage gets you 2 additional Rages per day. Extra Wildshaping does the same thing, as does Extra Smiting. Extra Bardic Songs (or whatever it's called) and Extra Turning actually net you 4 extra uses per day. I'm obviously not going to include these feats IMC but I'm wondering if I my version of the Extra feats should give you at least 2 additional uses vs just 1 additional like I currently have it. That's a difference of an entire Expansion feat slot, or 4 CPs.

I'm pretty sure the Barbarian, who gets 6 Rages/day by 20th level, is not at all so underpowered that he should only pay essentially 3 Expansion feats (if each gave +2/day) to get all of those Rages each day, essentially giving him 12 extra CPs over 20 levels to spend however he sees fit. However, with the Core feats giving you at least 2 extra uses per day, charging 4 CPs for an Expansion feat for just a single additional use per day seems a bit excessive. <shrug> Not sure.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[SSquirrel]

Actually I do pretty much think that the core is reasonably balanced. I also think that AU is balanced even MORE accurately and since that is the main version used by this system it should be no worry if someone (not you I know you don't like mana systems) wanted to have one. *shrug* Maybe one of these days I'll actually write it all out in strictly numerical format and leave out the table so you don't have to reference anything else.

I did finally get an email back from the guy who came up with the underlying BMP and spell tables. His email answered a couple questions I had and included some helpful material (including the more aggressive tables that I won't be using but still wanted to look over) but he didn't mention this thread at all.

Any chance you could forward me that info as well? Would be interesting to see the other things that go along with that system.

I'm probably going to keep Weapon & Armor Proficiency group feats, Skill feats and Item Creation feats as General Feats. That means Proficiency groups only cost 1 CP at 1st level and go up to 3 CPs at all later levels. That may seem pretty expensive but in the grand scheme of things it's still substantially better than Core (where a whole feat gets you one single Martial or Exotic weapon).

Hmm....I'm not entirely sure I personally would do the 1 at 1st level and 3 every level thereafter. I mean yeah it would show that its easier to start with more weapons than it is to learn them down the road, but I almost think it would make more sense to just have WP slots cost 2 each. That's just my desire to never have changing costs. I've been real busy lately and just now got around to downloading the new version of your sheet so I'll look at it later.

The other thing I'm still going back and forth on are the Core "Extra" feats. Extra Rage gets you 2 additional Rages per day. Extra Wildshaping does the same thing, as does Extra Smiting. Extra Bardic Songs (or whatever it's called) and Extra Turning actually net you 4 extra uses per day. I'm obviously not going to include these feats IMC but I'm wondering if I my version of the Extra feats should give you at least 2 additional uses vs just 1 additional like I currently have it. That's a difference of an entire Expansion feat slot, or 4 CPs.

I'm pretty sure the Barbarian, who gets 6 Rages/day by 20th level, is not at all so underpowered that he should only pay essentially 3 Expansion feats (if each gave +2/day) to get all of those Rages each day, essentially giving him 12 extra CPs over 20 levels to spend however he sees fit. However, with the Core feats giving you at least 2 extra uses per day, charging 4 CPs for an Expansion feat for just a single additional use per day seems a bit excessive. <shrug> Not sure.

I really don't think that its an excessive bit as done in the Core rules. I mean if someone wastes all of their feat slots in regular 3E on Extra Rage they have someone who can Rage like mad but has few other tricks really.
If you're going to make them singles make them cost only 2. I would go ahead and keep it like the Core rules have it with 2 and 4 for the various feats.

Hagen