D&D 5E Druid 20 = Infinite Hit Points

[sithramir]

But a fighter gets a FOURTH attack at 20! That's more than 3……! Do you sense my sarcasm?

I think its cool at 20 just feels others lose out

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think I'm missing something, please care to help.


A Druid can WILD SHAPE twice per short rest, when
he is on beast shape he will retain his Class Features,
meaning he can WILD SHAPE again while still in a
beast shape.

When he assumes a beast shape he will have that
creature's hit points, when they drop to 0, he will
revert back to his original form with his own hit
points still there.

On 2nd level, with CIRCLE OF THE MOON, he can
beast shape into CR 1 creatures, like a Tiger, and
he can WILD SHAPE as a bonus action.

A tiger has 37 hit points, a 2ND LEVEL druid would
have 74 ADITIONAL hit points PER SHORT REST.
That seems like a lot.

When a druid reaches level 20, he can WILD SHAPE
any number of times as a bonus action. This means
in each of his turns he can WILD SHAPE into a full
health creature of CR 6, potentially healing between
100~200 hit points PER BONUS ACTION.

Unless you can remove all his hit points in one round,
he will not be harmed.



Like I said, I' probably missing some limitation, can
someone point it to me?

If that interpretation is correct, I wonder who tested it.

I dont see any problem. The fighter can heal to full with enough short rests, too.

 

[SilverfireSage]

I think the general thought with D&D at high levels is "damn, you got to 20th level? Well here, have everything, because there's no way that's happening again." I've only ever had one campaign end with someone at 20th level, and while I'm working towards another, these current characters are going to be at level 10-14 for a looooong time.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with this. Yeah, it's really powerful, but none of the wild shapes are actually that strong, and none are going to be anywhere near as strong as a fighter at 20th level or a barbarian at 20th level. So you might be nearly unkillable, but you wont be adding to the fight much either.

 

[machineelf]

I think a good fix for this potential problem is to houserule that a druid has two pools of hp's. One pool for the druid's normal form, and one pool for the druid's shapechanged form. So if the druid is a tiger with say 37 hitpoints (I'm throwing out numbers because I don't have my PHB in front of me), and takes 20 points of damage, then changes into an ape with 47 hitpoints, then he retains the 20 points of damage and would only have 27 hitpoints in ape form. He could also not change into any form that had fewer than 20 hitpoints while suffering that hitpoint damage deficiency. Perhaps he would regain all his shapechanged hitpoints after a short rest.

 

[Sadrik]

Warlock 2 = infinite Hit Points

False life at will. Not as good but strong for the level requirement.

 

[evilbob]

As others have noted: it's not really the fact that druids at level 20 have infinite HP (and Mouseferatu had a good response to that). It's that other classes just don't seem to get quite as much by comparison. Then again: haven't seen it in play (and likely never will).

 

[pming]

Hiya

This isn't accurate at all.

From the PHB pg. 67: "When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

You missed the next paragraph:"However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious".

Now, it is a big vague if you ask me. It sounds to me like they are saying "if you drop below 0 in animal form, you carry over ALL of it"...but their example indicates that you still had 1 hp left in animal form, then reverted, you carry over 9 points (10 that you took, minus the 1 you had left).

[EDIT: I just reread it and I'm now thinking it's kind of a half-way-dead thing. As long as you don't take more than 50% of the total animal HP in damage, you're ok; so having a 20hp animal, taking 10 damage, reverting, carries over nothing...20 - 10 = 10; 10 - 10 = 0; but taking 11 gives 20 - 11 = 9; 9 - 11 = -2, so you carry over 2 points of damage. Seems a bit convoluted for 5e, so i think I'd still stick with "carry over damage". Anyway...]

IMHO, I'd be willing to bet silver pieces to copper pieces that the intent of the ability was not to give druids infinite HP at level 20. Call me crazy, but I think "carry over damage to your normal form" makes more sense than "here, have infinite hit points". What do you think their intention was?

No matter how you slice it, I'm ruling that you keep an accumulated damage total. The primary reason for wildshape is NOT to "give you more hit points"....it's because it's a cool thing for druids to be able to do. It makes them seem more wild and druid'ey. They can change into a fricken' animal! How many commoners can do that? Need to get over a gorge? Change into a bird. Cross a small lake? Change into an alligator. Need to hide from the trio of hippagriffs? Change into a gopher. To me, that is the primary reason for the Wildshape ability....not to "get nigh infinite hp changing forms". The rules, especially in 5e, need to be taken as guidelines for running a fantasy RPG. If someone gets hung up on the specific verbiage written in a rule, and that reading is obviously out of whack (overpowered, underpowered, or whatever), then it is up to the DM to interpret it how he sees fit. That is how 5e is written. It is written specifically with the intention of DM intervention and interpretation. Trying to read every single thing as RAW is going to lead to nothing but heartache and frustration. Ironclad rules are for 3.x/PF/4e, and I, for one, am happy to see more vagueness/looseness built into the 5e system.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Mouseferatu]

Um, that's not vague at all. The example is crystal clear. You take "leftover damage" past 0. Not any of the damage you already took in animal form.

So, for instance...

I am a human druid. I have 70 hit points.

I turn into a bear with 40 hit points. I currently have a total of 40 hit points.

I am hit for 25 damage. I currently have a total of 15 hit points.

I am hit for 25 damage again. My bear form takes the first 15, because that's what I have left. I revert, and take the "leftover" 10. I am now a human druid with 60 hit points.

 

[Vowtz]

I think most of us agree that it's a poorly
designed rule, then?

 

[machineelf]

So, can anybody think of any drawbacks to the solution I proposed above, about having two pools of hitpoints (one for a druid's normal form, and one for the druid's shapechanged form) where damage to the shapechange form is retained even when the druid changes to a new shape (restored after a short rest)?

It's what I'm thinking about doing, and I'm wondering if it will cause any other rules problems that I'm not seeing yet.