Druid incapacitating spells?

[Pielorinho]

Druid spells at low-level with saves:
-Charm Animal (sorta incapacitates them!)
-Calm Animal
-Cure Light Wounds (vs. undead)
-Entangle
-Hide from Animals

All of these except CLW are hindering-type spells.

Second level:
-Animal Trance
-Chill Metal
-Fire Trap
-Flaming Sphere
-Gust of Wind
-Heat Metal
-Hold Animal
-Warp Wood

3rd Level
-Call Lightning
-Contagion
-Cure Moderate Wounds (again vs. undead)
-Dominate Animal
-Neutralize poison (vs. a venomous enemy)
-Poison
-Quench (vs. object)
-Spike Growth
-Wind Wall (to avoid losing objects)

It's a pretty extensive list, actually.
Daniel

 

[moritheil]

werk: Were you trying to make your post sarcastic? All the effects of WIS that you've outlined are true for every classes' primary stats. And, of course, Druids are going to cast spells.

I'm only trying to point out that their spell selection is such that the DC of their spells is not as important as for other classes. They therefore don't get as much benefit from having high primary stat as other caster classes.

He was saying, as I was saying, that druids already rock without needing to get hold person spells. They mess with people in slightly different ways.

Also, you blatantly ignored or misunderstood my mention of briar web, the 2nd level version of entangle that also deals 2d6 damage, and, well, most of my post.

 

[mostholy2]

Outside of the spells I put in my original list, most of these spells you've listed are either animal/object specific (a pretty severe limitation, unless you are playing an all wood's campaign), or damage-based.

The other classes have incapacitating spells that have much less limitations on the targets and can completely take opponents out of the combat (or severely impair them) for a number of rounds if they fail their save.

Look damage is good, but unless I can kill them outright, I would rather severely impair my opponents, or incapacitate them completely for a few rounds.

 

[mostholy2]

I'm sorry I have no idea what briar web is as I only play from the core books. Or is it in the PHB, I can't remember and don't have my books at work.

From your description, it must be a nice spell.

I did not mean to ignore your post, but I am not trying to make the point the Druid class is not as good as the other spell-casting classes. Wild-shaping is awesome, spontaneous summon is great. Animal companions rock.

I'm just trying to make the point that they don't get as much benefit from having a high primary stat (WIS) as the other caster classes because their spells aren't as dependent on the DC.

 

[pbd]

even if they don't get as much benefit in terms of DC, they still get bonus spells and need a high stat to cast high level spells period

 

[Pielorinho]

Outside of the spells I put in my original list, most of these spells you've listed are either animal/object specific (a pretty severe limitation, unless you are playing an all wood's campaign), or damage-based.

The limitation is true: druids are very, very good at low levels in dealing with animals, but are more limited in other aspects. At low levels, you're going to be spending your time healing, and when you're not healing, you're going to be casting Shillelagh and beating on people.

However, as soon as you get Flaming Sphere, you'll be wanting to use that bad boy. And this brings us to your second point:

Look damage is good, but unless I can kill them outright, I would rather severely impair my opponents, or incapacitate them completely for a few rounds.

Well, that's a personal preference, and it's true that druid spells that incapacitate tend not to have saves. However, druids both have plenty of good incapacitating spells (Wall of Thorns, at fifth level, is an obscenely great incapacitation spell; and Faerie Fire is a fantastic low-level anti-invisibility spell) AND plenty of good damage spells. If you give up damage spells (which tend to have saves), then your Wisdom won't be quite as important as, for example, charisma would be for an enchanter-focused sorcerer.

But that's due to your lack of damage spells (a category in which druids definitely hold their own--check out flaming sphere and Flamestrike), not due to any innate characteristic of the class.

Daniel

 

[moritheil]

As Pielorinho has pointed out, the real focus of a druid is battlefield control, not "save or die/be incapacitated" spells. Clerics and mages exist for those.

You might think that the damage on, say, flaming sphere is not enough . . . but it's not about the damage. It's about occupying one square (more depending on which rules you use for it) with a fiery orb that makes most people think twice about moving anywhere near it.

I mean, try this: enemy closes with you in a corridor, 5' step back and drop a flaming sphere between you and him. Is he going to get at you? If you drop the sphere in with him, and he can avoid further damage by closing with you, then yes, he'll close. But if you keep it between, he'll usually stay back, as it would take an idiot to run through a sphere of fire to try to hit you, right? So you forego the damage, but (assuming he doesn't have ranged attacks or will just attack someone else instead) you're free to cast what you want without someone standing next to you.

Battlefield control.

 

[werk]

werk: Were you trying to make your post sarcastic? All the effects of WIS that you've outlined are true for every classes' primary stats. And, of course, Druids are going to cast spells.
I'm only trying to point out that their spell selection is such that the DC of their spells is not as important as for other classes. They therefore don't get as much benefit from having high primary stat as other caster classes.

I started out agreeing with you, but after research found that I had changed my mind.

I think the point you are asking is: Do you think that druids' abilities like wildshape, companions, etc, and summoning spells make up for their lack of direct attack spells?

I say yes. I consider it a fair trade in most games. Druids get a lot of special stuff that makes up for it. Keep the WIS high.

 

[irdeggman]

Forget the effect on the spell's DC, a druid requires a high Wisdom in order to be able to cast the spells in the first place.

In order to cast a spell the character must have a Wisdom of 10 + (level of spell to be cast) - so in order to cast 9th level spells a druid is required to have a 19 Wisdom.

That is the single most important reason to have a high Wisdom for the class.

 

[nak9788]

There is one spell mentioned in I believe Masters of the Wild: Waterball.

Its a 4th level spell that functions like a wizard Fireball (only its water-based) and its deals subdual damage. Its a great crowd-control spell. Sure it knocks everyone silly but it doesn't cause any real damage and instead will knock them unconscience (if they take enough damage of course).