D&D 5E Dual Wielding Sucks- Some Thoughts on 3PP feat.

[Zardnaar]

I have a 5th level halfling fighter using a moonglow sword from Xanathars (+0, glows), and a +1 short sword. Dex is 19, 16 strength. Without feats dual wielding is good level 1-4, OK level 5-10 but eventually falls behind.

I am using sa 3pp feat called Small Arms Expert. Basically it lets you use str and dex to damage with light weapons (daggers and short swords basically) and gives you +1 to a stat of your choice. Sounds broken yes? But with the -5/+10 feats and polearm amster the DM was "what the hell". And he had used it on one of his PCs previously as well.

With the default array its more or less +2 damage, I had rolled stats and got a 17 and 15. With even higher stats the feats OP, with something close to the default array its surprisingly balanced. Compared to the dual wield feat you're not actually dealing that much more damage than two 1d8 rapiers as you ahve to use d6 or d4 weapons with the feat. It also turns your constitution score into a tertiary stat vs a normal dual wielder can have con as a secondary stat.

Compared with the -5/+10 feats you can get +5 to all damage with it but that is basically the SAE feat+ 4 or 5 stats buffs. Realistically its more like +2 or +3 damage (factoring in the opportunity cost of smaller weapons) with the exception being very high rolled stats and even then I have seen worse with a level 1 Goliath Barbarian some munchkin ran with 20 strength, 19 con, great weapon master and he did not apply exhaustion levels to his PC.

So Mr Halfling gets 1d6+8 X2 and 1 attack at 1d6+7 at level 5. He is consistently dealing 20-30 damage and in 1 more level 1 I'll take weapon specialisation feat that grants +1 to a stat of my choice (dex) and lets you reroll 1s (2's for halflings) and you score an extra dice of damage on crits.

Basically I thought the feat might be to good and I did have higher stats (small party, 3 or 4 PC's). Its really good but easier to deal with than some of the PHB feats so its fine IMHO and I have not seen a good halfling fighter since 2E. So says Rats the LE Halfling fighter with a gambling addiction and a tendency to eat rats and anger management issues if you use his real name (Dwill Tealeaf). The Other PCs suspect he might not be good but he is very trustworthy and less annoying than a lot of thief types (dex fighter, urchin calls himself a thief).


Anyway this seems to have quite a few interesting feats including a sharpshooter replacement. It does power creep the PHB but generally on options under powered such as dex based melee fighters or acid/frost Sorcerers etc.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/185763/10-New-Feats-for-5th-Edition-DD

 

[Quartz]

So you get to add both stat bonus? With no downside? No increased chance to miss? Stacks with TWF and Duellist? Wow that's good. And you get a stat bump too! At least with the -5 / +10 feats you have a vastly increased chance of missing and you can choose whether or not to use the feat; with SAE there's no downside and you don't need to have to choose. A fighter with 20 Str and 20 Dex would be just sick.

With the -5 / +10 feats you only notice them when the player rolls well; otherwise the user requires help - Guidance, Inspiration, etc - to counter the -5.

 

[Horwath]

I would sooner pack in off-hand attack into Attack action with main hand attack than go with this feat.

Any feat that is better than +2 dex for finesse attacks is by default broken and cannot be allowed.

 

[TwoSix]

Seems worth a half-feat to me. Unless you roll insanely well or are really high level, you're going to be adding a +2, maybe a +3 to a weapon type where you've already taking a -1, maybe a -2 to damage because of the smaller damage die. And you have to make Con a tertiary stat instead of a secondary stat, as you mentioned.

Worst case I can think of would be a VHuman Barbarian/Fighter, taking this feat at first level. Using the stat bump from the feat, you could start with Str 16 Dex 16, Con 16, everything else 8. Grab TWF from Fighter, rage, and you're at 1d6+8, 1d6+8 as a bonus action. That's what, 23 dmg/round? Compare to the same build taking Polearm Master and GWF and doing 1d10+5/1d4+5 for 19.3 dmg a round, but gets other benefits like reach and can still benefit from GWM.

I like it...it's competitive with GWM/SS, but the weird build priority and having to use substandard weapons makes sure it doesn't overshadow them at higher levels.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So you get to add both stat bonus? With no downside? No increased chance to miss? Stacks with TWF and Duellist? Wow that's good. And you get a stat bump too! At least with the -5 / +10 feats you have a vastly increased chance of missing and you can choose whether or not to use the feat; with SAE there's no downside and you don't need to have to choose. A fighter with 20 Str and 20 Dex would be just sick.

The real cost is that you can't turn Strength into a dump stat. Normally, a halfling with high Dex would sink their Strength as low as they could, and instead prioritize Wisdom or Con. With this feat, it gives you the option of pumping your Strength for almost half of the benefit that you get from Dexterity, but you still have to pay the stat cost to actually do that.

With the -5 / +10 feats you only notice them when the player rolls well; otherwise the user requires help - Guidance, Inspiration, etc - to counter the -5.

If there's more than one weapon-using character, then the cleric was probably going to cast Bless anyway. And if the enemy has very high AC, then they can always choose to not take the penalty, so they're only missing out on the opportunity cost from the feat they aren't currently using.

Essentially, the reason the 5/10 feats are overpowered is because they are balanced against +2 to your attack stat, but everyone who takes one of those feats is going to max out their attack stat anyway. It's not a choice. You're going to take both. The real opportunity cost of the 5/10 feats is very small, because they're only really in competition against maximizing your Constitution or something.

This new feat lets two-weapon fighters get in on the scam, by giving them something to do with their feats after they maximize their Dexterity.

 

[Ristamar]

My personal tweak/house rule: I slid a modified mechanical benefit from the Elven Expertise feat into the Dual Wielder feat. It differentiates the style from GWF, focusing on accuracy rather than pure damage.

Dual Wielder
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:

• You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
• You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
• You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
• Whenever you have advantage on a melee weapon attack roll while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, you can reroll one of the dice once.

In terms of fluff, I imagine it as overwhelming an opponent's defense with a flurry of attacks by pressing your momentary advantage.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I would sooner pack in off-hand attack into Attack action with main hand attack than go with this feat.

Any feat that is better than +2 dex for finesse attacks is by default broken and cannot be allowed.

It's weaker than SS and GWF.

 

[Zardnaar]

The real cost is that you can't turn Strength into a dump stat. Normally, a halfling with high Dex would sink their Strength as low as they could, and instead prioritize Wisdom or Con. With this feat, it gives you the option of pumping your Strength for almost half of the benefit that you get from Dexterity, but you still have to pay the stat cost to actually do that.
If there's more than one weapon-using character, then the cleric was probably going to cast Bless anyway. And if the enemy has very high AC, then they can always choose to not take the penalty, so they're only missing out on the opportunity cost from the feat they aren't currently using.

Essentially, the reason the 5/10 feats are overpowered is because they are balanced against +2 to your attack stat, but everyone who takes one of those feats is going to max out their attack stat anyway. It's not a choice. You're going to take both. The real opportunity cost of the 5/10 feats is very small, because they're only really in competition against maximizing your Constitution or something.

This new feat lets two-weapon fighters get in on the scam, by giving them something to do with their feats after they maximize their Dexterity.

With the default ability array I think its worse than Pole Arm master and you are going to have to sink 4 more feats into it.

Its also less abusable than the -5/+10 feats where you can buy off the -5 part or use it with sharp shooter at -3 in effect with the archery style. To really abie it you have to give up buffing perhaps con. At best you can have 16/16 lvl 1 with a 13 con.

Compare with PAM who can have 16 str and 14 con.

1d6+6 X 2 is 19 average damage evel 1.

PAM is 1d10+3, 1d4+3 its 15.5 average but you often get a 3rd attack via the reach thing (avg damage 8.5 or 24 total).

And this is when dual wielding is the best relative to the other styles. Assuming a stat bump level 4 by level 5.

1d10+4, 1d10+4, 1d4+4 avg 25.5 vs 1d6+7 X3 (31.5) and you still get a potential reaction attack with PAM.

This is assuming you start with 16/16. Overall its competitive with PAM which is one of the better feats in the game but PAM also can stack with GWM so you get a 3rd attack even more via cleave.

Assuming a doubnle 16, best case senario is a fighter that by level 12 can have 20/20 str/dex where this feat out right gives you +5 to all damage. I have seen sharpshooter+ crossbow experts using the -3/+10 part every ombat and even if the -3 causes them to miss a few times anything less than 2 misses is an absolute upgrade over the base damage.

Rolled stascan blow this ojt of the water ut once again I have seen level 1 PCs using the -5/+10 part of those feats due to things likie 20 str/dex and 19 con on the same PC lvl 1.

So yeah it seems competitiveness with PAM, the -5/+10 feats at the cost of less hit points probably (con is a tertiary), so from that PoV I think its probably fine its actually less abusable than the -5/+10 feats and things like Sorlock. If you are playing with feats and multiclassing you may as well let it in IMHO its an option for dex based melee to make them not suck. My halfing did have roleld stats and started with 17 dex and 15 strength which is not to much higher than the default array and I had to wait to level 4 to take the feat.

Full feat
\
+1 str or dex

Can draw a weapon with the light or thrown property as part of making an attack with it

str+ dex to light weapons.

It also enables things like action surging and throwing spears or daggers which RAW you can't do.

The spell buffed cleric is also doing similar amounts of damage and by level 8 or so functionally can keep up spirit guardians every/most fights (she has warcaster).

 

[BookBarbarian]

Neat. So with Light weapons it would work with Handaxes? I would definitively consider it on a Barbarian since all of mine start with 14+ Strength and 14+ Dex.

 

[Zardnaar]

Neat. So with Light weapons it would work with Handaxes? I would definitively consider it on a Barbarian since all of mine start with 14+ Strength and 14+ Dex.

If hand axes are light yes. It doesn't work with finesse weapons though so no rapiers its basically 1d6 and d4 weapons. Did not think of it in terms of using a Barbarian in medium armor throwing axes though. Or no armor come to think of it.