Dungeon brain-teasers

[VinylTap]

Was thinking of throwing a few of these into a dungeon to mix things up.
What do people think of using them in general? Are they a good idea in a dungeon? do they ever backfire. I'd never use them as the only way to progress, just an optional route.

A few I've stolen from a good reddit posting and adapted them to a DnD/Pathfinder Setting

I wrote these up quickly, the meta-game language could definitely be improved, but you get the gist.


1. 2 Statues

Two statues stand next two a pair of doors , the most remarkable thing about them in they appear to be able to talk. Guardians of the dungeon, they're here to test your mental resolve, failure to solve their riddle will mean taking the wrong door and possibly death. The party may ask both statues one question each, one statue is lawful good and will always tell the truth. The other is Chaotic Evil and will always lie, but you are unsure which statue is which. What questions will you ask them?

Answer:

Spoiler

Ask both statues what the evil statue will tell them, they'll both mention the wrong door to take.

2. Light Riddle


A riddle appear on the wall, 'Which will you light first in a dark room? Give spark to the correct answer and place it on the platform so that your route may again be illuminated'
Below the riddle is a weight-activated platform. Sitting next to the door and the platform is a table with a Lamp, a torch and a candle. A box of matches sits on the corner of the table.

Answer:

Spoiler

The obvious answer is light the match and place it on the platform

3. Ball Riddle

8 balls sit on the table next to a two platform scale. A weight-activated platform is set in the wall next to a locked door. A riddle is carved into the wall, and it reads 'One ball is lighter than the others, in only two weighs, discover which one is different and place it on the platform'.

The balls will magical return to the table in a random order as soon as the scale is used twice.

Answer:

Spoiler

Weight ball 1-3 against 4-6, if they're uneven its in one of the balls on the lighter side. then weigh two of the three: if they're even, its the 3rd ball, if not its one of those you weighed. If you first attempt is even, its either ball 7 or 8, and you can test them on your second attempt

 

[Will Doyle]

Logic puzzles like this can backfire, and really aren't to everyone's tastes, but I've always loved them. It's difficult to find ones that people don't know already though - that "one lies, one speaks truth" puzzle is as old as the hills, for example.

I think the important thing is to skin them correctly to the environment (i.e. you wouldn't find one in goblin warren), and provide a good reason as to why they're there in the first place. Cool if the dungeon was designed by a crazed wizard to identify (and ultimately capture!) heroes with brains as well as brawn - not so cool if this is just part of Baron Fatbeard's castle.

It can feel very "gamey", basically.

 

[DnD_Dad]

Someone likes journey quest, just saying.

 

[nogray]

Was thinking of throwing a few of these into a dungeon to mix things up.
What do people think of using them in general? Are they a good idea in a dungeon? do they ever backfire. I'd never use them as the only way to progress, just an optional route.

I'm a pretty big fan of these types of challenges in general, and I've thought of how to work this sort of thing in campaigns I've DMed, but I often run into stumbling blocks when I consider using the puzzles. The justification for their use, as mentioned by [MENTION=6682161]Will Doyle[/MENTION] is vital. They make very little sense in many cases, especially with the instructions given nearby. Pretty much, you are left with using them as mad wizard fodder.

1. 2 Statues

Two statues stand next two a pair of doors , the most remarkable thing about them in they appear to be able to talk. Guardians of the dungeon, they're here to test your mental resolve, failure to solve their riddle will mean taking the wrong door and possibly death. The party may ask both statues one question each, one statue is lawful good and will always tell the truth. The other is Chaotic Evil and will always lie, but you are unsure which statue is which. What questions will you ask them?

Answer:

Spoiler

Ask both statues what the evil statue will tell them, they'll both mention the wrong door to take.

Your answer doesn't quite work. (More comments and a correction given in the sblock.) Also, keep in mind that if you describe it that way, the PCs might just cast some form of alignment detection spell to determine which is the good, and which the evil. D&D PCs have a lot of options of which puzzle designers must be aware. (Would "Zone of Truth" or "Discern Lie" or "Know the Path" work? Be ready with justifications or whatnot.)

[sblock="Two Statues"]Let's say that the left door is good, the right door is bad.

The Good statue knows that the Evil statue will say, "Right," so that is what it responds. The Evil statue also knows that it will say, "Right," so it lies and says, "Left."

What you want to ask (and this can actually be done with just one question total, not per statue) is, "What would the other statue tell me is the safe way to go?" This means that Good still says, "Right," but now, so does Evil. (Evil knows that Good would say, "Left," so it lies and says, "Right.")[/sblock]

2. Light Riddle

A riddle appear on the wall, 'Which will you light first in a dark room? Give spark to the correct answer and place it on the platform so that your route may again be illuminated'
Below the riddle is a weight-activated platform. Sitting next to the door and the platform is a table with a Lamp, a torch and a candle. A box of matches sits on the corner of the table.

Answer:

Spoiler

The obvious answer is light the match and place it on the platform

This one falls through in a fantasy world. First off, matches are a bit of a modern (or at least semi-modern; 1827 or so). Assuming you go with the 3e "tindertwig," though, you at least have a shot at maintaining genre.

Of course, PCs who are survivalists (who would use flint and tinder to start the initial fire, saving any [strikethrough]matches[/strikethrough] tindertwigs for when they need fire really fast), fire mages of some sort (who can start pretty much anything on fire at will, and will thus start with whatever they feel is the best light source), or people with a light spell/cantrip (who might cast that on ... pretty much anything) might all ignore the matches in favor of their own methods for lighting the darkness.

3. Ball Riddle

8 balls sit on the table next to a two platform scale. A weight-activated platform is set in the wall next to a locked door. A riddle is carved into the wall, and it reads 'One ball is lighter than the others, in only two weighs, discover which one is different and place it on the platform'.

The balls will magical return to the table in a random order as soon as the scale is used twice.

Answer:

Spoiler

Weight ball 1-3 against 4-6, if they're uneven its in one of the balls on the lighter side. then weigh two of the three: if they're even, its the 3rd ball, if not its one of those you weighed. If you first attempt is even, its either ball 7 or 8, and you can test them on your second attempt

If the puzzle resets "as soon as the scales are used twice," then it is an unsolvable riddle. As soon as the determination is made (the second weighing), the puzzle resets, meaning there is no time to select the lighter ball an place it on the solution platform. You need some other resetting mechanism to make it work.

You can use this exact method for nine balls, too, assuming that you know for sure that the ball is lighter (or heavier). You need another weighing if the ball is different, but are unsure if it is heavier or lighter.

The big obstacle here is that, you need to account for possible PC scales/balances, too (arguably part of an alchemist's or appraiser's kit, definitely available for purchase or pretty easy to make), or other ways that they might be able to determine the weights of the balls on their own without involving the puzzle resetting scale. (A PC, particularly one with appraise or thievery or just a particularly perceptive one, might argue for a check of some sort to "feel" any weight difference.) The puzzle might work better if there is some "immeasurable" quantity that the scales are to measure for it to work.

Of course, all of these are subject to the player having heard them or seen their solutions before. The sphinx's riddle only works until its answer is well-known.

 

[VinylTap]

nogray: Great tips, I'll keep those in mind when they land in my dungeon plans, and you're completely correct about the ball puzzle, i'll have to reword that a little bit.

ps. What about spell specific puzzle's like Pathfinder's 'Crypt of Everflame' and the pool of 100 keys (one being magical). Running it in a few weeks, i think it adds a lot of nice charm to the adventure, but my Dming experience is still pretty low.

 

[Gilladian]

And the 18 Int wizard doesn't know the answers to these within moments of discovering them, why?

Edit: and now that I've been unhelpfully snide, let me say that I only like riddles or puzzles that allow me the Player, to think about what skills, resources, and equipment my CHARACTER could bring to bear on solving the problem. In other words, the scale problem would be FUN if I WAS able to use my own appraisal equipment to "cheat" and solve the puzzle, because that lets ME be clever FOR my character, not just spend my time thinking logically, which I'm not really very good at.

 

[VinylTap]

And the 18 Int wizard doesn't know the answers to these within moments of discovering them, why?

Because I'm not running that sort of campaign.

 

[Li Shenron]

What do people think of using them in general? Are they a good idea in a dungeon? do they ever backfire. I'd never use them as the only way to progress, just an optional route.

I love riddles, but there are people who hate them, mostly because they are afraid to solve them. You need to know your players...

Some things to keep in mind:

- all the riddles you proposed are classic, there is a very good chance that at least someone in your group already knows the answer, unless the players are very young e.g. teenager; however I don't think this is a problem, if someone knows the answer already he'll probably be happy anyway that he can provide the solution

- don't make solving a riddle absolutely necessary to progress in the adventure (you've already mentioned this), or if you do that, then you must provide ways to get past it without actually solving it (e.g. the characters may take a detour from the quest to find someone who can solve the riddle for them)

- if you're using a good (i.e. not easy) riddle, try to place it where the PCs will encounter it at the end of the gaming session, which means that the players will have many days to solve it before coming back to the game

I had a couple or killer riddles we stumbled upon in the past, if you're interested, but personally they took me like an hour or so to solve them the first time so you definitely need to consider this chance when placing them in the middle of an adventure!

 

[Jhaelen]

I enjoy riddles. A lot, even.

However, I'm usually the only one in our groups, who does. So while I'm having fun puzzling it out (assuming it's both difficult _and_ new to me, which isn't easy to come up with), the rest withdraws to answer SMSs, look up football results, discuss video games or movies or go have a smoke.

And that's why I don't like to have riddles in adventure modules, unless they're supposed to challenge the characters and not the players.

 

[VinylTap]

- all the riddles you proposed are classic, there is a very good chance that at least someone in your group already knows the answer, unless the players are very young e.g. teenager; however I don't think this is a problem, if someone knows the answer already he'll probably be happy anyway that he can provide the solution

- if you're using a good (i.e. not easy) riddle, try to place it where the PCs will encounter it at the end of the gaming session, which means that the players will have many days to solve it before coming back to the game

I had a couple or killer riddles we stumbled upon in the past, if you're interested, but personally they took me like an hour or so to solve them the first time so you definitely need to consider this chance when placing them in the middle of an adventure!

You make a good point, and you're right. I'm not really worried that they've heard the riddle before (although I doubt they'll know all of them), I don't think the 'buzz of success' for solving the riddle quickly will diminish all that much if it takes them 10 minutes, or if they know the answer instantly.

The only thing that would make me hesitate dropping the riddle over a session break is the likely hood of them googling the riddle and finding out the answer that way. For some reason that feels worse than if they already know the answer from previous experience.

I'd love to hear some more riddles (sort of why I started the thread), so go nuts

Jhaelen: I think it'll go over well, my group is mostly mid 20's and female, they get bored of combat quickly, that's why I'm trying to come up with as many interesting non-combat encounters as i can. The cool thing about talking statues is you can role-play pretty easily with them with very little prep. They're very focused NPCs, and probably good practice for me (ad lib-ing is something I really need to work on)

The whole "Character Challenge" vs. "Player Challenge" is an interesting debate... the thing that sort of keeps me comfortable with "player challenges" (if you want to get super meta... aren't they all ultimately "player challenges", but perhaps that dilutes the point too much) is that keeping things strictly within the realm of proxy characters seems much more limiting in the possibilities of problems I can throw at my players. Perhaps I'll change my mind as I get better at GMing. As it is, we're still trying to learn the rules, and our games are full of "meta-talk" still, but that's going to be one of the main things I focus next session, curbing that a little.