Dungeon Crawls - How much is too much?

[haiiro]

I love dungeon crawls.

Building opportunities to rest, refresh supplies and buy/sell loot into the adventure is key. There's nothing worse than clearing out a big section of dungeon (if it's that kind of dungeon) and having to just leave and come back - you either have to re-clear that part of the dungeon (boring) or find it empty (not believable, and unsatisfying).

If you can find a way to build these opportunities into the dungeon every few sessions or so - and do so in a believable manner - that's half the battle right there, IMO. Perhaps only part of the complex subsided into the swamp, and another part is still on/in firm ground, so the PCs have to leave the dungeon to re-enter the dungeon - which is a perfect opportunity to rest, level, etc.

It sounds like you're on the right track, and the suggestions so far in this thread have been excellent.

 

[seasong]

You can also introduce variety in the setting. If you make the setting matter, the players will notice and care about it.

For example, you could break the dungeon up into:
1) Dry, upper areas
2) Rooms filled with standing water (1-3 feet deep)
3) A few rooms below the water table, completely submerged.

And into:
A) Shaped stone dungeon
B) Natural cavern.

Put in a bunch of swamp creatures that can hide beneath the surface of the water, and a few fast swimming, dangerous things in the depths, and you've made the water table matter. Have the natural caves be harder to navigate, but important... perhaps the big bad guy or his most powerful minion dwell at the end of a crawlspace-only shaft, and use teleport to get where they need to be. Or perhaps the natural caves provide a shortcut, but are more dangerous.

This works better if you break it up somewhat, also. For example, the ghost (from my example earlier) could be in the natural caverns, near an unmarked grave, and near the surface. The key could be a bit further down in the dungeons, but to get to it, you have to go through two rooms of standing water, swim through one submerged hallway (breath checks!), and then climb up a trapdoor into a dry room where it is guarded by something nasty. Past each of those is more dry rooms before coming to a series of standing water rooms... and the big bad guy (an aboleth, perhaps?) awaits at the bottom of a submerged well that has been enlarged at the bottom.

 

[kenjib]

Did you ever read the 1e dungeonier's survival guide? The underdark as presented there sounds like it addresses this problem. How about Journey to the Center of the Earth? The ruin could connect to a complete underground world with entire civilizations of creatures to whom the light of day is but a remote myth, an easy merging of an infinite number of dungeons, wilderness (via spellunking), and urban campaiging...

 

[der_kluge]

I really like Seasong's suggestion. I think breaking the crawl into defined sections is the way to go. Great concept.

I probably wasn't entirely clear, but when I mentioned "Isle of Dread", it's really more like "Continent of Dread", and any civilization they are liable to run across might be that of Lizardmen, or Gripplis, or whatever; no humans, elves, or any of that. All of the languages will be foreign, and gold and other coins will be essentially worthless.

So, what I imagine will happen is that the PCs will abandon their material wealth in search of utility. They will certainly trade with the villages of monstrous races, but will have to find the right things to trade, or can perform quests for them in exchange for services.

Diaglo, what's so special about module DL1?

Kenjib, I read through that book last night as a matter of fact. What a load of crap that thing is. Some of it is interesting, but a vast majority of it is kind of like "wtf?"

 

[d20Dwarf]

One idea to break things up is to have an underground society, or at least a fairly large community, somewhere about midpoint in the dungeon. Then they've gone through and cleared things out, can sell their loot and interact with others, then they get more dungeon ahead of them! There may even be intrigues within the city based on their actions within the dungeon.

Also, I must recommend Dungeoncraft by Fantasy Flight Games. It should be out in a month or so, and it has rules and guidelines for almost all of the ideas suggested so far in this excellent thread. Mike Mearls really did a great job on it.

 

[barsoomcore]

I'm actually making my group sick of dungeoneering on purpose.

All they wanted to do was get out of town. Unfortunately, the town was on top of a huge stone mesa and the gates were well-guarded. Fortunately, they hooked up with a gangster who showed them a secret route out of the city -- a passage leading down into the rocky heart of the mesa itself. Unfortunately, said passage has turned into a massive dungeon crawl (I used the maps from Spider Queen and inserted my own beasties) and they are utterly desperate to get out into the open air. I've really turned up the claustrophobia and every monster they've met has been really unpleasant and nasty and they're all sick and tired of being underground.

Last session they came with a few feet of the exit. And were captured by Spider Woman and sent to the arena as slaves.

The UNDERGROUND arena, of course. Hee hee hee.

Moral of the story is: sometimes player frustration is a DM's best friend.

 

[kenjib]

Kenjib, I read through that book last night as a matter of fact. What a load of crap that thing is. Some of it is interesting, but a vast majority of it is kind of like "wtf?"

LOL. I wasn't referring to implementation, just the basic idea. I thought an example would help convey the concept. Underground civilizations was all I was talking about.

 

[cbatt]

If you have the patience to try and find them, you may want to look for FAQ/Walkthroughs for the following older PC games:

- Dark Heart of Uukrul
- Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
- Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds

They are dungeon crawls but are full of things to keep the player interested - also, they are not especially hack-n-slashy type PC games. They each have great backstories and involving gameplay. Strong examples of Dungeon Crawls, imho.

Some of the highpoints are the enclaves of friendly/neutral folks who somehow survive in these environments. And not just humanoid monsters, but actual human (and other PC race) settlements (possibly trapped or imprisoned). As mentioned above, this gives the PCs a necessary break in the action and allows them to play with resource management as well as have actual interactions.

If you go this route, make sure that these enclaves are meaningful to the plot, not just a place to spend loot and go on power-levelling sub quests (like in many computer games).

Also, odd stuff unrelated to the main storyline is a great way to break up the monotony. Example: They're exploring the temple complex avoiding lizardmen and such, slap in an encounter with the chatty spirit of a lesser priest of the temple's former order - it doesn't do anything, and it's not malevolent, but it gets in the party's way (etc...). It sounds obvious, but is easily overlooked.

OH... and as I was writing this, and before I forget, another fantastic dungeon crawl is an old ODnD adventure: B4 - The Lost City. Great example of how to have enclaves, not to mention a full-blown underground cavern containing a town of freaky mask wearing degenerate humans.

 

[Capellan]

So, does anyone have any similar experience to dungeon crawls? How do you keep them interesting, and how much is too much?

My other concern, perhaps saved for a separate thread; perhaps not, is that the PCs will be in a "Isle of Dread" kind of situation - away from all known civilization. And I'm afraid that if I keep them in "hostile" territory for too long, that they're going to end up hating it. For players, being able to get to safety occasional is a great relief, so I'll probably work in friendly monstrous villages, which will still provide a sense of mystery and danger, but if they act diplomatic enough, will provide some sense of ease, and relaxation - at least ocasionally.

Addressing the "Isle of Dread" thing first, I'll start by saying that throwing PCs into an unfamiliar environment can be a lot of fun. Play that up. One idea that occurs to me immediately is for them to meet some kind of monstrous humanoid cannibals.

Who are perfectly friendly and harmless toward the PCs.

Why? Simple: they're cannibals. And as far as they are concerned, the PCs aren't "people".

As for the dungeon crawl aspect. seasong's ideas (all of them) are excellent. Use 'em. Short term goals. Variable terrain. All good.

Give them plenty of opportunity to leave the complex, too, and retreat/recuperate. Dungeon crawls usually become a grind when there is nothing to break them up. Send the PCs off on a trading mission. Have a big native celebration (like a wedding). As long as there are breaks in the 'crawl', it ought to work fine.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I have found that dungeons get boring to my players after 5 levels (10 to 20 rooms a level). What I have started to do is make smaller dungeons but put them in groups in a wilderness. Players return to a base camp and keep going back looking for items, this is one of the reasons I like Bluffside (ruins in the middle of the city).