D&D 5E Dungeonscape no more?

[Bugleyman]

They've flat out said it was profitable... just not as profitable as they would like.

Excellent. But that contradicts my observation about the validity of an inference based on the product's lifespan how?

Likewise, a system that's only getting 30-40% conversion means 60% of the player base is new. That's doing SOMETHING right.

30-40% of 3.5 players converting to 4E is not equivalent to to saying that 30-40% of 4E players came from 3.5. The former is referencing 30-40% of number X, where X is the 3.5 player base. The later is referencing 30-40% of number Y, where Y is 4E player base. We have insufficient data to infer anything about the size of the 4E player base, except that it was at least 30-40% of the size of the 3.5 player base.

I drew no conclusions about the quality of 4E (For the record, I liked it). You seem to be trying to rebut an argument ("4E was bad") which I didn't make.

 

[DEFCON 1]

You never said it couldn't be 'butt ugly' or that descriptive text was required. You also haven't demonstrated how ugliness or descriptive text creates additional barriers that would be exacerbated by last minute changes to the PHB.

So you really want to use the 'Ruled As Written' defense, rather than the obvious 'Rules As Intended'? Fine. Good for you. You win. Some random schmuck can design a crappy character generator and release it the day the Player's Handbook is released, just like I said couldn't be done. Ya got me!

But now that that's out of the way... let's actually go over what I was insinuating (because I leave it on faith that people are smart enough to understand the meaning behind the specific words I write) and please explain to me how to make that generator with the functionality and design aesethetic like the online *or* offline DDI Character Builders had, and have it completely ready by the PH's release, AND have it be good, useful, and cool enough that people would actually pay a monthly subscription for it at that exact moment? Because that's exactly WHY WotC would be releasing a Builder of any sort in the first place. Make something people would spend money for.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It would have been possible. My own Character Builder reached 95% completeness in the meanwhile, and I am just one guy doing this in his freetime (you have to take my word on it as well as on the quality of my character builder, sadly due to licence issues I cannot release it - I am still hoping there will be a nice and open licence in the future).

It is not impossible to do! And an internal guy would have the advantage of knowing in advance "well, maybe implement this class later, there are big changes coming up on it".

Some random guy who has posted a total of 5 times here on the boards says I need to take it on faith that what he says is true, actually is?

Yeah, sorry. You need to earn a little more street cred around here before I'm gonna accept that. Hell... there are people here on ENWorld that have been posting for years that make claims that 4E absolutely lost money for the company, and I refuse to take their claims seriously either.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Manage to do what? Create a rather crappy javascript program with a barely adequate user interface that produces a butt-ugly and uninspiring character sheet with no descriptive text whatsoever? I have no idea. But I *do know* nobody would ever actually pay to use it.

The UI isn't pretty and the output format leaves something to be desired, BUT IT WORKS. UI and output formatting can be improved later but an engine that largely works properly at the PHB launch is pretty impressive.

 

[mcbobbo]

So you really want to use the 'Ruled As Written' defense, rather than the obvious 'Rules As Intended'? Fine. Good for you. You win. Some random schmuck can design a crappy character generator and release it the day the Player's Handbook is released, just like I said couldn't be done. Ya got me!

You said it wasn't possible because of the level of change towards the end of release. That was the 'intent' of your statement, to say it was 'too hard' as to be 'impossible'. Do you or do you not still feel the level of change towards the end of release made it impossible?

And you still have yet to demonstrate that the character builder linked is 'crappy'. Does it work or does it not work? Let's be clear here.

...please explain to me how to make that generator with...

the functionality

What functionality is missing? It makes characters, and I believe the calculations are correct. Please let me know if you have information to the contrary because my own folks are using it.

... and design aesethetic ...

Formatting of data is typically handled by a different team than the structure of the software itself. This is called the presentation layer and there are experts in this field who could be applied to this type of project. This obviously wasn't done for the link I shared with you, but there's nothing about the level of change towards the end of release that would change this situation. Unless you're aware of something?

... like the online *or* offline ...

Online vs offline is pretty well-trodden ground these days. My grocery list app has a 'sync to cloud' feature. I'm also pretty confident this js could run offline, but I didn't develop it and haven't tried. But there's no 'magic' at work here.

... DDI Character Builders had ...

I'm not a 4e guy, so I have no reference for what this means. But you might have a point, possibly functionality (as asked above)?

... and have it completely ready by the PH's release, AND have it be good, useful, and cool enough that people would actually pay a monthly subscription for it at that exact moment?

This is a fair point. If WotC's only goal for digital tools is recurring revenue, then there are additional challenges here. However, I am not aware of any evidence that this is the case. What do you have to demonstrate that this is the ONLY reason for such a tool?

Because that's exactly WHY WotC would be releasing a Builder of any sort in the first place. Make something people would spend money for.

My understanding of WotC's strategy disagrees. Everything but everything they're doing is to 'grow the brand', period. Not everything is about money at this point. Take Basic for example. Who would 'spend money for' that? Also, how much does it cost to participate in the D&D Adventures League, because I think that's operated at a loss for WotC also.

Some random guy who has posted a total of 5 times here on the boards says I need to take it on faith that what he says is true, actually is?

Yeah, sorry. You need to earn a little more street cred around here before I'm gonna accept that.

You're aware of a functioning builder from my our own conversations. I think dude can see those. Why do you keep pretending that it isn't possible?

I'm personally back to enworld because the only game I want to discuss right now is D&D. And enworld is great for D&D. But that doesn't mean that everyone with a low post count is somehow inferior to everyone else. It does nothing to strengthen or weaken anyone's argument. Sorry.

 

[ExploderWizard]

My understanding of WotC's strategy disagrees. Everything but everything they're doing is to 'grow the brand', period. Not everything is about money at this point. Take Basic for example. Who would 'spend money for' that? Also, how much does it cost to participate in the D&D Adventures League, because I think that's operated at a loss for WotC also.

I remember a Q&A with Mearls when digital tools were being discussed. A lot of folks (myself included) said that they would only be interested in a product that they could PURCHASE and that a SERVICE that they could subscribe to would be a non-starter.

IIRC the answer was that digital offerings would be a one time purchase kind of deal. If that is still the case, I am interested in buying something cool that works well.

 

[aramis erak]

Why do people keep talking about PDF as a replacement for what Dungeonscape was supposed to do? I'm not saying having a PDF isn't a good idea, my iPad has been a godsend in Pathfinder and PDF has been part of that equation. Thing is, a PDF isn't the best thing to use at the gaming table.

Everyone I know who plays Pathfinder has some app on their phone that has the classes, rules, spells, feats, ect all sorted and searchable. Little things like having your spells already sorted and searchable makes playing a caster a hell of lot easier. If all they did was release an app that did the 5e version of this, I'd be happy.

It's not so much a replacement as the best tool for accessibility and portability.

With a non-obfuscated OEM PDF, one can find the content quickly, use a Text-To-Speech, or copy and paste powers text into a character sheet. Right there, that's a lot of the tech.

And a lot of the tech actually enforces the rules, making kitbashing homebrew worlds harder, rather than easier. PDFs simply present them.

For android, there are already some decent tools. Goathead's DM minion looks pretty darned good. Walter Kammerer's 5E Character Sheet is very nice, too bad it doesn't do PDF out. (Hint, Hint, Walter!) Walter's allows pasting in stuff other than what's in the rules.

The tools are out there. One nifty way to use an OEM PDF is to locate it, and have the app simply grab text from it as it needs the bits, rather than shipping with the text. PDF is, after all, just a wrapper around a postscript file, and .ps is actually a text file with markup.

There's also a combat map program for android that's really good - I've used it with Prime Directive 1E - that, if the maps were actually consistently gridded, would be an awesome tool for use with PDFs of the adventures, or at least the dungeon maps.

So, really, the real trick is just getting us the legal data.

 

[mcbobbo]

I remember a Q&A with Mearls when digital tools were being discussed. A lot of folks (myself included) said that they would only be interested in a product that they could PURCHASE and that a SERVICE that they could subscribe to would be a non-starter.

IIRC the answer was that digital offerings would be a one time purchase kind of deal. If that is still the case, I am interested in buying something cool that works well.

Wouldn't you also use zero-dollar tools, if they sought to offer those?

 

[MartyW]

Here's the thing... It's not too late for WotC to recreate a viable digital strategy.

I've noted a way it could be quickly and easily accomplished:
http://ragingowlbear.blogspot.com/2014/10/dnd-digital-its-time-for-simple-license.html

and some commentary from yesterday:
http://ragingowlbear.blogspot.com/2014/10/wizards-of-coast-fumbles-digital-ball.html

As I noted in my articles, it's tough to build this software from scratch, but it's not tough to provide the data files for a 3rd party vendor that already has the software available.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Wouldn't you also use zero-dollar tools, if they sought to offer those?

Well YEAH! Who doesn't like free?