Dwarven Weapon Training feat question

[CarlTheNecromancer]

This recently came up at a Dungeon Delve last night. The feat Dwarven Weapon Training says "You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with axes and hammers."
I had been looking at the Adventurer's Vault items on the D&DI compendium, and thought the Craghammer looked pretty cool. The only thing was that the craghammer is a superior weapon, and the PHB has this to say on Superior weapons "Superior Weapons are even more effective then military weapons but require special training to use. You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat." (p215)

Does the DWT feat allow dwarves proficiency with superior weapons?

It would seem to make sense to me, because it has training right in the feat name =] and because it does not say "you gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with SIMPLE AND MILITARY axes and hammers" or "blah blah.. ...axes and hammers except those of Superior quality"

 

[Caliban]

This recently came up at a Dungeon Delve last night. The feat Dwarven Weapon Training says "You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with axes and hammers."
I had been looking at the Adventurer's Vault items on the D&DI compendium, and thought the Craghammer looked pretty cool. The only thing was that the craghammer is a superior weapon, and the PHB has this to say on Superior weapons "Superior Weapons are even more effective then military weapons but require special training to use. You can learn to use a superior weapon by taking the Weapon Proficiency feat." (p215)

Does the DWT feat allow dwarves proficiency with superior weapons?

It would seem to make sense to me, because it has training right in the feat name =] and because it does not say "you gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with SIMPLE AND MILITARY axes and hammers" or "blah blah.. ...axes and hammers except those of Superior quality"

Currently dwarven Weapon Training and the Eladrin Soldier feats give you proficiency with all weapons of the mentioned types, even superior ones.

This might be errata'd in the future, or it may not.

 

[Scarface6174]

This is where the DM rules how he wants it. To me, it would seem slightly overpowered that EVERY Melee dwarf or Elf can take a single feat to get proficiency AND a +2 do damage with a single feat. Don't get me wrong, I like the way it's currently worded myself. I'm playing a Dwarf Barbarian right now and would love the extra feat slot I used for the wep proff, but it seems a bit overpowered...

 

[logopolis]

This might be errata'd in the future, or it may not.

I suspect it will be. It doesn't really make sense to me that the eladrin weapon feat would enhance the character's skill with the dwarven urgrosh.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Just to toss out an idea, but what about changing the wording of DWT ever so slightly?

Pretty much, it treats axes and hammers as being one step down the proficiency chain. A battleaxe (martial) would be considered a simple weapon, while the craghammer (superior) would become a martial weapon. Which is nice, but if your class doesn't grant you martial weapon proficiency, then it's not going to do you as much good.

Same line of thought for Eladrin Soldier and spears would be applied as well.

 

[Nikosandros]

Just to toss out an idea, but what about changing the wording of DWT ever so slightly?

Pretty much, it treats axes and hammers as being one step down the proficiency chain. A battleaxe (martial) would be considered a simple weapon, while the craghammer (superior) would become a martial weapon. Which is nice, but if your class doesn't grant you martial weapon proficiency, then it's not going to do you as much good.

Same line of thought for Eladrin Soldier and spears would be applied as well.

I was thinking something like that. It's certainly a workable idea.

 

[Gloombunny]

Do you think that dwarven clerics getting to save a feat is overpowered but dwarven fighters saving a feat is fine? 'cuz clerics are the only characters who want to use melee weapons but don't get military proficiencies to start with. Well, them and melee warlocks, who also don't seem like they're so close to overpowered that they should have to spend an extra feat.

 

[Gort]

I think that this was one of the things they didn't think about when they wrote the eladrin and dwarf feats.

By the RAW it's allowable though.

 

[logopolis]

Just to toss out an idea, but what about changing the wording of DWT ever so slightly?

Pretty much, it treats axes and hammers as being one step down the proficiency chain. A battleaxe (martial) would be considered a simple weapon, while the craghammer (superior) would become a martial weapon. Which is nice, but if your class doesn't grant you martial weapon proficiency, then it's not going to do you as much good.

I think that would work. It adds some flavour, without being overpowered.

In fact, that's pretty similar to what they did it in 3E, with dwarf and gnome Weapon Familiarity abilities.

 

[DracoSuave]

Racial Feats have to have a little more kick than the equivalent type-less feat at the same tier. Prerequisites allow a little push in the power level of the feat.

Look at Hellfire Blood compared to Astral Fire. +1 to hit AND bolsters fear, which is a type that spreads across damage types. Is Hellfire Blood broken? It's hardly an auto-include, even on characters that take it.

If you're a melee class, what is the cost you're taking for taking the Eladrin and Dwarf weapon feats?

Neither race includes a +2 to strength, which means that you're taking a -1 to hit over Strength based races. When you look at 'optimized' builds for non-Swordmage Meleers, Dwarves and Eladrin don't even show up on the radar. Dwarves only show up for Hexhammer builds, and Eladrin only show up for Swordmage builds, and rarely at that. Now, is +2 damage a fair price for -1 to hit? In most cases, it's actually not in your favor, especially as your damage goes up. The better the weapon, the worse the trade-off. Dwarves and Eladrin actually -need- a feat like this to be on the same radar with Strength races, never mind the same tier.

If Character Ops don't bat an eye at Stunties and Pointies -despite- the existance of these feats, then chances are the technology is not as omgpowerful as you think.