Dwarven Weapon Training feat question

[Donovan Morningfire]

*Bump*

Last night, after a D&D game, I was talking with the guy playing a Dwarf Fighter and the DM, and one of the topics that came up was Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior-class axes and hammers.

In short, the DM was insistent that there had been an official ruling that DWT did not give you any kind of proficiency with Superior-class axes and hammers, and that you explicitly had to take the Weapon Proficiency feat to become proficient with them, going so far as to proclaim anyone that thought otherwise was a *grandma unfriendly term* idiot. Since I'm playing an Elf Ranger in his game I just let the matter drop.

And since I'm not exactly a frequent visitor to the WotC sites outside of Star Wars updates, I was wondering if anyone had seen such an official clarification regarding this issue?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Well, it's either a case of "we didn't think of that" when they made Ad Vault, or they knew it, and thought it was ok. Even if they didn't consider it, it isn't too bad.

Ultimately, any class that wants to use axes, hammers or spears is going to require strength, with the exception of a paladin who wants charisma. Rogue uses Dex, but he doesn't use those weapon groups. Swordmage, also doesn't use those weapon groups. So, you have fighter, paladin, warmage, cleric, melee ranger and barbarian. All make their weapon attacks using a primary stat that does not get racial bonuses from either of the races.

So, I say a 'superior weapon prof with a bonus to damage' is fine and dandy way to make up for an otherwise suboptimal racial choice to go with the class.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Seems to me that everyone in the DnD forums thinks Dwarven Weapon Training gives superior hammers and axes. I happen to agree with them.

 

[Kordeth]

*Bump*

Last night, after a D&D game, I was talking with the guy playing a Dwarf Fighter and the DM, and one of the topics that came up was Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior-class axes and hammers.

In short, the DM was insistent that there had been an official ruling that DWT did not give you any kind of proficiency with Superior-class axes and hammers, and that you explicitly had to take the Weapon Proficiency feat to become proficient with them, going so far as to proclaim anyone that thought otherwise was a *grandma unfriendly term* idiot. Since I'm playing an Elf Ranger in his game I just let the matter drop.

And since I'm not exactly a frequent visitor to the WotC sites outside of Star Wars updates, I was wondering if anyone had seen such an official clarification regarding this issue?

There has been no official errata, and the RAW text is quite clear in that it makes absolutely no distinction regarding weapon categories, only weapon types.

At the risk of being snarky, your DM is the one who's being a *grandma unfriendly term* idiot.

 

[almuric]

Thank you for writing.

Yes. Dwarven Weapon Training grants proficiency with all axes and hammers. So those listed in the Adventurer's Vault would apply as well.

Good Gaming!


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Customer 10/07/2008 12:53 PM Does the Dwarven Weapon Training feat from the 4th edition Player's Handbook give proficiency with all the Axes and Hammers in the Adventurer's Vault? Specifically, the Khopesh, Craghammer, Waraxe, Execution Axe, Mordenkrad, Double Axe, and Urgrosh. All of these are in the axes or hammer group.

Dwarven Weapon Training [Dwarf]
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with axes and hammers.

If not all, which ones does it give proficiency for? Thanks.

********************
Page Number: PH: 194, AV: 9
Book Name: PH; AV

 

[Wolfes]

also in the wizard paragon builds the dwarven fighter has a craghammer and dwf

 

[GorTeX]

looking at the Pregen level 11 PC's (Sample Paragon Characters), the Dwarf fighter has DWT and is using a Morkenkrad without having weapon prof Morkenkrad.

(granted, there are problems with that pc--wrong damage for a Morkenkrad, also has weapon focus Morkenkrad, etc)

 

[logopolis]

Thank you for writing.

Yes. Dwarven Weapon Training grants proficiency with all axes and hammers. So those listed in the Adventurer's Vault would apply as well.

Good Gaming!

Well, I guess that's settled. I still think it's a bit weird, but so are some other 4E rules. Thanks for checking, Almuric.

 

[KidSnide]

Yes. Dwarven Weapon Training grants proficiency with all axes and hammers. So those listed in the Adventurer's Vault would apply as well.

I suppose it's also worth noting that this is probably a balanced rule. Dwarves should be good at melee and failing to get that +2 racial strength bonus is a huge hit to their effectiveness. The extra damage from the superior weapons (and the slight arguably improvement of DWT over weapon focus) makes up for missing a little more often.

If there is a place where it may be broken it's with Eladrin swordmages who get a racial int bump on Int-based melee attacks /and/ Eladrin Soldier. EDIT: Or, not -- as eladrin soldier doesn't give prof to the superior heavy blades.

-KS

 

[Mad Hamish]

Ra

If you're a melee class, what is the cost you're taking for taking the Eladrin and Dwarf weapon feats?

Neither race includes a +2 to strength, which means that you're taking a -1 to hit over Strength based races. When you look at 'optimized' builds for non-Swordmage Meleers, Dwarves and Eladrin don't even show up on the radar. Dwarves only show up for Hexhammer builds, and Eladrin only show up for Swordmage builds, and rarely at that. Now, is +2 damage a fair price for -1 to hit? In most cases, it's actually not in your favor, especially as your damage goes up. The better the weapon, the worse the trade-off. Dwarves and Eladrin actually -need- a feat like this to be on the same radar with Strength races, never mind the same tier.

If Character Ops don't bat an eye at Stunties and Pointies -despite- the existance of these feats, then chances are the technology is not as omgpowerful as you think.

Although I'll note that the Dwarven abilities can make for a pretty darned effective defender with the resistance to forced movement and the ability to second wind as a minor.