Dwarves

[Prothall]

Shoes, in my own group I haven't had anyone play a dwarf character in, oh, 2 years or ten levels, and I know I've never had a gnome. I don't think it's even because of power or anything, though - my players all play elves or humans, except for that one who is always a half orc and the other who's a often a halfling...

 

[CRGreathouse]

Of the last 20-25 characters played in my group, we're had only two dwarves -- both because they wanted to take the Dwarven Defender prestige class. We haven't had any at all since 3.5.

 

[nikolai]

Re: "How can Dwarves be too good when no-one I know plays them."

I think - by the rules - Dwarves have too many bonuses and not enough minuses. These, for the record, are:

• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

Now people may not always take dwarves. But this may just mean that for some character concepts, dwarves aren't the best min/max option. People may also just not have a thing for dwarves, and would rather play humans than something uncool, or something that doesn't fit their mental image of the character they're trying to create. I'm not sure you can argue that they're not overpowered on the basis of people not taking them, you have to do so on the basis of the rules for playing them.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Dwarves are good. But so are elves and half-orcs and humans and halflings and gnomes.

That said, I agree that Dwarves should have -2 Dex RATHER that -2 Cha. They already get +2 racial saves vs. Spells and SLAs (which IMO, is damn strong), so the point of lowering Ref. saves is moot.

I can also see the arguement that -2 Dex just doesn't seem fitting for a dwarf. A dwarf that can't aim? Or a dwarf that can't move in armor effectively? That's just silly.

The way I see it, Dwarves are tough and (half)Orcs are Strong. Those are the primary fighter-types and is balanced as is, with Dwarf getting a little edge because of their better effectiveness against spellcasters. Giving them -2 Dex and Cha just makes them want to make Cha a dump stat even more.

 

[MacMathan]

As a long time Dwarf Player (that doesn't sound right does it) I would like to see a -2 dex instead of cha.

The idea of dwarves wearing heavy armors that do not rely on dex worjks for me, the idea that a dwarven cleric is less resolute in his turning of undead does not.

I would not add it on top of the cha negative though even with the feat.

 

[Thanee]

If it's just to tone down dwarves, ...

No, it's not really meant to tone them down, it's more of a side-benefit.

I just feel, that -2 Dex fits them (getting rid of the -2 Cha might work as well, but I also find that appropriate, since dwarves don't tend to be the type that gets along well with others). Just adding the penalty would surely be too harsh, so I thought to balance it somewhat by adding the Endurance feat, which also seems very appropriate.

It's really mostly meant as a flavour change.

Bye
Thanee

 

[GreyShadow]

I like it. For myself, I've always seen dwarves as strong, unyeilding and unagile (is that a word?). Just like a mountain, only smaller.

 

[Darklone]

If dwarves were too good, everyone would be playing them. But everyone is not. Proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

At least in most groups I know, most people don't play what is good but what they like. We're elflovers here... at least after the 3 dwarves in the group died.

-2 dex instead of -2 cha is ok by me. Their legs, hands and everything else is just short and sturdy.

 

[Nellisir]

I just feel, that -2 Dex fits them (getting rid of the -2 Cha might work as well, but I also find that appropriate, since dwarves don't tend to be the type that gets along well with others). Just adding the penalty would surely be too harsh, so I thought to balance it somewhat by adding the Endurance feat, which also seems very appropriate.

What about this: replace the -2 Cha with the -2 Dex penalty, and give dwarves a -1 racial penalty to Charisma-based skill checks? Mechanically it's the same as a -2 Charisma as far as skills are related, but it doesn't penalize sorcerers, bards, or clerics who rely on the Charisma stat for other features.

I've always gone along with the -2 Cha (then again, no one has ever played a dwarf in my 3e campaigns), but in addition to marking interpersonal relations, Charisma also defines "sense of self" -- something dwarves IMC have plenty of.

Cheers
Nell.

Added: You could even make the skill penalty only apply to non-dwarves (harkening back to 1e and variable COM scores).

 

[MacMathan]

Consider the idea for a -1 penalty on cha based skill checks officially snagged I like it.