Dwarves

[shilsen]

What about this: replace the -2 Cha with the -2 Dex penalty, and give dwarves a -1 racial penalty to Charisma-based skill checks? Mechanically it's the same as a -2 Charisma as far as skills are related, but it doesn't penalize sorcerers, bards, or clerics who rely on the Charisma stat for other features.

I've always gone along with the -2 Cha (then again, no one has ever played a dwarf in my 3e campaigns), but in addition to marking interpersonal relations, Charisma also defines "sense of self" -- something dwarves IMC have plenty of.

Cheers
Nell.

Yoink! I already had the -2 Dex instead of -2 Cha in place, but this is a very nice addition. Thanks.

 

[Thanee]

How about the following then...

-2 Dex
+/-0 Cha
Endurance as a racial bonus feat
-2 racial penalty to the following skills: Bluff, Climb (?), Diplomacy, Gather Information (?), Handle Animal (?), Perform (?), Ride (?), Swim, Tumble.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

-2 racial penalty is really bad = -4 cha. But I like it. Not that any dwarf in my campaign ever successfully tried to use these skills. Except for Swim.

 

[Thanee]

I know that -2 is more than you get from -2 Cha.

But it's really limited to skills not many dwarves pick up anyways.
And it's still minor compared to all the advantages dwarves gain, and even somewhat compensated by the Endurance feat.

Oh, wait, I forgot Tumble on that list... that should really be there, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Khaalis]

-2 racial penalty to the following skills: Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Perform (?), Ride (?), Swim

I am curious why you chose these? What about dwarves in your world warrents these?

* Bluff I can understand as no dwarf has ever been portraid as being all that subtle, especially combined with the racial tendency toward lawfulness.
* Diplomacy I can see penalized due to the classic dwarven stubborness.
* Swim I could agree. The dwarf that can swim is a rarity.

The others I dont understand.

Climb? Dwarves spend their likes spellunking. 75% of spellunking is based on climbing.

Handle Animal and Ride? I think the penalty is rather shortsighted and would only apply to Horses. Dwarven cavalry is not that uncommon, using lizards and boar and even bears as mounts in many literary representations.

Perform should not suffer. Dwarves are famous for singing, percussion instruments, chanting, and oratory (speeches and story telling).

Gather information I guess is a matter of personal taste. I happen to think dwarves would be just as good at this as anyone else. Who better than to sit around trading stories, drinking the target to a loose tongue than a dwarf?
SRD: "An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends, and a DC 10 Gather Information check get you a general idea of a city’s major news items, assuming there are no obvious reasons why the information would be withheld. The higher your check result, the better the information."

JMHO & $0.02 worth.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, that's why I put some question marks there... maybe not enough. Fixed that!

Handle Animal... I just don't see dwarves being good at that.
Ride... yeah they can, but have a harder time to do so, because they are just built for standing on the ground, so to say.
Climb... similar reasoning, dwarves have a very disoptimally shaped body for climbing (short and sturdy).

Gather Information... I just picked all "socialize" skills. Altho that one surely stands on weaker feet compared to Bluff and Diplomacy.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Afrodyte]

I concur with everyone who voiced reservations against the changes you made for dwarves. Depending on your goals with balancing the race mechanically, you may also wish to consider what this does to roleplaying. What character concepts are affected by these changes? In what ways do they make dwarves more, less, or equally interesting to play beyond the common fantasy stereotype? How do these changes enhance roleplaying? How do the limit it?

 

[Thanee]

I think they will lead to dwarves better fit into their "stereotype", while not being overly restrictive. They still can do anything they can do now, maybe weaker in some (i.e. rogue), actually much better in other areas (i.e. sorcerer or when going into the Endurance-direction (i.e. Die-hard, or Templar PrC)), but they better fit the mental image I have with dwarves and how they are depicted pretty much everywhere.

And again, it's not my goal to balance the race mechanically. I just deliberately chose to give them more disadvantages than advantages in the changes, because they are the most powerful PC race in the PHB right now. But that part is of no real importance, it's just a side benefit.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nellisir]

How about the following then...
-2 Dex
+/-0 Cha
Endurance as a racial bonus feat
-2 racial penalty to the following skills: Bluff, Climb (?), Diplomacy, Gather Information (?), Handle Animal (?), Perform (?), Ride (?), Swim, Tumble.

You're really fixated on this Endurance feat.

Howabout either lose the feat and switch the penalty to -1, or keep the feat and leave off Climb and and Tumble. Tumble in particular is a sort of double jeopardy -- it's already got a -1 from the Dexterity penalty, adding a -2 on top of that guarantee's no dwarf will ever take it.

I'd take Climb off the list regardless.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Thanee]

I just think Endurance totally fits. Don't you think so?

Bye
Thanee