E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[Ry]

I can see E7 working better with AE than with D&D. If the wizard gets 4th level spells but the sorcerer doesn't, the sorcerer isn't a very happy camper.

It does look like some "capstone" single-classing feats are popular here on the boards; I still think they are a better solution than going to E8.

 

[Ry]

Oh, and for the campaign; Ebrys. Thanks Cheiromancer!

 

[ajanders]

A question for people using E6: how do you find this changes building pure casters?
If I was building a spellcaster in d20, I'd make darned sure they could get their 19 int/wis/cha so as not to lose 9th level spells. If you cap out at third level spells, you don't need so high a spellcasting stat.
Granted, you'll still want bonus spells, so a high casting stat is important, but if I were a sorceror or cleric, I'd be looking very hard at balancing my bonus spells and my bonus skills.

And any arcane caster will think about balancing bonus spells and bonus hit points.

 

[Morrius]

Getting back to E6 for a moment, another thing to consider for spellcasters is their key ability. If the highest possible spell level for PCs is level 3, the a Wizard with 13 Int will be able to cast anything on the wizard list, and he'll get the maximum possible bonus spells at 16 Int. Should this be tweaked as well?

(Edit: Wow, just a couple of minutes too slow.)

 

[Ry]

I like the idea of some good feats that require the higher casting stats for the respective casters, but that's all that I think is needed.

 

[GameDoc]

I really liked the suggestion of making 4th level and higher spells available as incantations using the OGL rules from UA.

Would you use a single feat? For example (and keeping in mind some of this is arbitrary off the top of my head**):

INCANTATION (General)
Prerequisites: Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard level 6; Spellcraft 9 ranks; Score of 14 or higher on base spellcasting ability.
Benefits: You can cast 4th level or higher spells from your class spell list as an incantation. The incantation takes 6 hours per level to perform and requires material components equivalent to the amount listed in the PHB under "Goods and Services" to have the spell cast. To perform an incantation, your spellcasting ability score must be at least 10 + the level of the spell being incanted.


Or you could require the feat be taken multiple times:


INCANTATION (General)
Prerequisites: Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard level 6; Spellcraft 9 ranks; Score of 14 on base spellcasting ability.
Benefits: You can cast 4th level spells from your class spell list as an incantation. The incantation takes 24 hours to perform and requires material components that cost the equivalent to the amount listed in the PHB under "Goods and Services" to have the spell cast.
Special: You can gait this feat multiple times up to your base spellcasting ability score - 13. Each time you take this feat, you can cast the next highest level of spells on your list as incantations. Each additional level adds 6 hours to the incantation and requires additional material components.

**(well... not so arbitrary, 9 ranks would be the max ranks a 6th level character could have in spellcraft).

 

[Emryys]

Oh, and for the campaign; Ebrys. Thanks Cheiromancer!

Hmmm... I think I could develop a brotherly love for the name...

 

[iceifur]

For the "higher-lvl spells as incantations" idea, I'd go with the existing system for spell research (DMG, page 198), or a variant thereof, to learn the blasted things. Basically, researching whether or not a given spell-as-incantation would be viable would take 1 week per effective spell level of the incantation, require a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + effective spell level), and cost 1,000 gp per week of research.

If you want to limit the ability to research and cast incantations (unlike the default option in Unearthed Arcana, which is, IIRC, not limited to only spellcasters), just tie the ability to research and use incantations into a feat (with prereqs of character level 6th and/or the ability to cast 3rd-lvl spells).

Your maximum number of incantations known could be equal to the number of times you've taken the aforementioned feat, or it could increase similarly to the Psionic Talent feat (max of 1 incantation known the 1st time, +2 incantations the 2nd, +3 the 3rd, and etc.].

Since the default DCs of the checks required to perform incantations are rather high (especially considering the fact that skills top out at 9 ranks at 6th level), with every purchase of the feat you could toss in a free minor bonus (+1 or +2; the bonuses would stack) on checks required to perform incantations. Alternately, you could set the bonus equal to one step less than the number of times you've taken the feat (as the increasing option listed above; +1 bonus the 2nd time you take the feat, +3 total the 3rd, +6 total the 4th, and so on).

If you limit the feat so it can't be taken more than 5 times, you have the following (after taking the feat all 5 times):

• A maximum of 5 incantations known (or 15, if using the other option).
• A +5 bonus (or +10 for either of the other options) on all checks made to cast incantations.

Just my 2 cp. Apologies all around if this comes across as a ramble.

 

[Cheiromancer]

How much time should be spent at levels 1-5 in an E6 campaign? If the group goes through as many level appropriate encounters as in a standard 1-20 campaign, they'll spend 25% of their adventuring career in that interval; the rest will be gaining 20+ bonus feats.

I think that is a little lopsided. I think some of the feats should be gained at lower levels (at 5K intervals). That way it won't feel like such a slow-down when 6th level is reached. And there will be less emphasis on the "lean upwards" or "capstone" feats; these feats, since they are aimed at gaining 7th or 8th level abilities, tend to defeat the point of E6.

I'd suggest starting at 2nd level, and leveling up at 5K, 10K, 20K and 40K. At all other multiples of 5K you gain a feat. So you gain one extra feat at 4th level, three extras feats at 5th level, and the rest of your feats at 6th level. By the time you gain 15 more bonus feats (19 total) you should have done the equivalent of a 1-20 campaign; of this time, just over 50% will have been at levels 1-5.

(I am gradually coming around to the E6 idea, but am still retaining something of the exponential slow-down in leveling up).

I am not terribly fond of the idea of "lean upwards" feats. I think only feats that would be appropriate to a standard campaign should be in E6.

 

[knight_isa]

I was under the impression that E6 was purposely lopsided, the idea behind it being that ~6th level was the "sweet spot" for rycanada and his group (and obviously others as well). The earlier levels are just there to provide backstory for the "epic" 6th level characters, and the later feats are to give the players the satisfaction of seeing the characters advance.

When I first saw Eex, I thought it was great. It makes a lot more sense to me as an advancement scheme. The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that it puts too much play time at < 8th, when about 8th is my sweet spot. So for me, the goal is to play as much in the ~8th level range as possible. Thus I want to get to ~8th level as quickly as possible.

There seems to be two ways to accomplish this: lean-upwards E6 and E8. At the moment I'm leaning toward E8, since the lean-upwards side of E6 is generating far too many custom feats and playtime focuses too much on < 8th.