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Earth Variant Monk - Critiques?

DamionW

First Post
Hope everyone’s not sick of my threads on here…. Anyways, to round out my series of elemental-variant martial classes, I’ve started drafting an earth oriented monk build. As with the barbarian http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=153213, the paladin http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=151601, and the ranger I made http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152898, I’m looking for some balance advice from the GMs on here. These classes are for a campaign world where the Elemental Planes have partially fused with the Material plane and dominated all of the cultures there. The Earth cultures are the most regimented and ordered, so I could envision there being monk orders devoted to them. I wanted them to depict how a martial artist devoted to fighting Earth’s natural enemy, Wind, would develop. After some careful revisions, I've come up with the mechanics I wanted for this variant. I've put the full flavor text as well as class features below:

STONEFIST (EARTH VARIANT MONK):
When the Four Forces first arrived on Elementia, the dwarves with the help of the Earth Lords quickly expanded their power base and settled far from their original mountain homes. However, the Air and Water Lords quickly struck back, and the Earth Lords faced massive attrition. The towns that are now Sirroco, Thunderhold and Floodwash were first tall buttes and lush cropland that were taken from them. The dwarves would come forth to meet their enemies in the finest armor and with the grandest weapons the Earth Lords could provide them. However, weighed down like that, the wind pirates and wave-riders were able to dance around them. They’d hit and run faster then the dwarves could respond.

The battles went on like this for some time. Then the halflings tried to invade through a mountain pass guarded by an ancient monastery. The monks within had remained neutral for centuries. However, when the Air Lords forces tried to assault the monastery, the monks came forth unarmed and unafraid. The monks tumbled just as fast as the quick halflings could, and then pinned them to the cliff face and pummeled them into submission.

The halflings were sent back battered and bruised, and word spread fast of how a small group of unarmed monks held back a vast number of the air raiders through sheer concentration and training. Peasants began flocking to the monasteries to learn how to become such effective, determined warriors. Once they arrived, they brought much of the Earth Lords teachings with them. This was the start of the stonefists, or Earth variant monks.

Since then, the monasteries have spread along the cliffsides of Windbreak and Fissure. The monks have become the first line of defense should the Water or Air forces try and infiltrate the Earth Realms again. They understand the fluid nature of their enemies and use it to their advantage, combining it with the stability and strength of stone to form a pure fighting style. Word of them has spread to the other Realms and few are foolish enough to come face them.

Adventures: Stonefists adventure either out of a need to test their limits or a sense of duty to the Earth Lords. They seek to push their bodies until their as solid as stone and fast as the wind. They feel a deep sense of duty to the Earth Lords and frequently are assigned as bounty hunters or bodyguards to the deacons of stone. Any enemy they can fell with their bare hands brings them renown and pride in their abilities.

Characteristics: Earth variant monk’s key features revolve around their ability to fight unarmored and unarmed. They have a repertoire of various combat maneuvers designed to maximize their mobility and use the very ground against their opponents. They can channel their lifeforce, or ki, and combine it with Earth magic to develop some powerful abilities.

Alignment: The lifestyle of a monk has always been regimented and disciplined, even more so as part of the orderly Earth cultures. Only lawful characters can undertake this class.

Religion: The stonefists hold allegiance to the Earth Lords out of a sense of community and duty. They draw much of their strength from the divine power flowing through them, but they are not pious or devout in the practice of their faith. Much of their time is spent on internal reflection and meditation, which precludes prayer to the otherworldly Earth deities.

Background: Most of the Earth variant monks come from humble backgrounds. It is rare that the wealthy feel the call to asceticism that the monasteries demand. Many peasants and farmers on the other hand are drawn to the monasteries to study to improve themselves and defend their homes. The only constant among monk characters is that they have a strong drive for self-improvement and a calling to stand against those that would harm or steal the people of the Earth Realms.

Races: Humans form the vast majority of the residents in the monasteries. Some dwarves have learned to eschew the heritage of metal and hammer and seek to forge their inner steel to perfection. Earth gnomes, even more than dwarves, feel a strong sense of community and less of a dogma to clad themselves in plate armor and battleaxes. The dull but strong half-ogres occasionally find their way to a monastery to find a sense of belonging, but find the disciplined lifestyle extremely difficult.

GAME RULE INFORMATION:
Earth variant monks have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Strength powers the stonefist’s unarmed damage as well as their ability to grapple and trip their opponents. Dexterity increases their evasive ability and is useful to many of their class skills. A high Wisdom increases their defense and powers some of their special powers.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Hit Die: (Normal) d8

Class Skills:
The stonefist’s class skills are as a normal monk’s, except that Knowledge (architecture) replaces Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill
Skill points: (Normal) 4+Int modifier

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: (Normal)
AC Bonus (Ex): (Normal)
Flurry of Blows (Ex): (Normal)
Unarmed Strike (Ex): (Normal)
Bonus Feat (Ex): At 1st Level the stonefist can select from Improved Sunder or Improved Grapple as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, they can select from Deflect Arrows or Improved Trip. If the monk picked Improved Sunder at 1st level, the Earth variant monk gains Eagle Claw Attack {Complete Warrior} at 6th level. If they selected Improved Grapple, they instead gain Earth’s Embrace {Complete Warrior}.
Earth Sense: At 2nd level, the stone fist gains the Earth Sense feat as from Races of Stone.
Stability (Ex): A Earth variant monk trains hard to be masters of their own movements and to control the battlespace from the ground up. At 3rd level, a stonefist receives a +4 bonus to resist being bull rushed or tripped when both feet are on the ground. This bonus stacks with any other sources of exceptional stability (such as the dwarf’s racial bonus).
Earth Adept: At 3rd level, the stonefist gains the Earth Adept feat as from Races of Stone.
Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, the Earth variant monk’s unarmed strikes are treated as Lawful/Earth for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 10th they can be treated as cold iron. At 16th they can be treated as adamantine.
Slow Fall (Ex): (Normal)
Breathless (Ex): At 5th level, the stonefist can slow their respiration down to that of stone. They can add a number of rounds to the length they can hold their breath equal to their monk level + their Wis modifier. While holding their breath they’re immune to all gas-based effects from spells or abilities (ex. Stinking Cloud).
Cliff Run (Su): At 6th level, the Earth variant monk’s travels among rocks and stone has heightened their foothold on earthen surfaces. They can use the effects of the Up the Walls feat {Expanded Psionics Handbook} when used on rock/stone surfaces, and do not need a psionic focus.
Wholeness of Body (Su): (Normal)
Earth Mastery: The Earth variant monk gains the Earth Mastery feat from Races of Stone at 9th level.
Stone Hue (Ex): At 9th level, the stonefist gains the Stone Hue special ability as the Dark Hunter {Complete Warrior}.
Power Drop (Ex): When a stonefist has fought to 11th level, they can channel their enemies’ ki downward to destructive effect. When a monk’s enemies strike the ground, the ground strikes back. For a number of times a day equal to half their monk level, the stonefist can make a special trip or overrun attack. If successful they deal their full unarmed strike damage to the enemy as it becomes prone.
Wing Cripple (Ex): Upon reaching 12th level, an Earth variant monk can make a number of attacks per day equal to his monk level that can hinder flying foes. If the attack succeeds and his opponent fails a Fort save (DC as a stunning attack), the opponent cannot fly until it receives magical healing or a DC 20 heal check and 8 hours rest. This effect can only be used on creatures that fly by means of locomotion/wings (not on djinn or air elementals for ex.)
Camouflage (Ex): At 12th level, the stonefist gains the camouflage ability as a ranger.
Grounding Stance (Ex): With the coming of 13th level, the Earth variant monk can freely flow their ki energy to and from the ground to dissipate certain effects. They gain resistance to electricity/10, and also can resist up to 10 points of [Air] damage, such as from a Whirlwind spell. The monk also gains a bonus of +4 to saving throws of spells of the [Air] subtype or to natural wind effects, including saves to avoid being moved or knocked down. These bonuses apply only when the stonefist is standing firmly with both feat on the ground.
Stone Touch (Su): With the blessing of the Earth Lords a 15th level stonefist can change their enemies’ very flesh to rock. This effect functions as the Quivering Palm ability of a normal monk, but instead the victim is transformed into solid rock as the Flesh to Stone spell.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 15th level the Earth variant monk gains the Hide in Plain Sight ability as a ranger.
Timeless Body (Ex): (Normal)
Earth Press (Ex): An elder Earth variant monk of 17th level or higher can mold the very ground around their enemies with their attacks. When they make a pin, overrun, or trip attack, the condition(immobilization or prone) lasts for a number of rounds equal to their Wis modifier without effort.
Earth Glide (Ex): At 18th level, the stonefist’s connection to the Earth Lords is near complete. They gain the Earth glide special ability as an Earth Elemental. To end the monk’s turn while still in the earth, they must have held their breath with their Breathless ability. If the earth monk runs out of breath they immediately begin suffocating.
Leap Tackle (Ex): A master monk of 19th level or higher has been fighting flying enemies for so long they develop a technique to bring them down. By pushing off of the ground the Earth variant monk can attempt a Jump check that uses the horizontal DC to cover vertical distance and can carry them up to two squares away horizontally. If this brings them within reach of a flying enemy, they can make an immediate trip attack. If they succeed, the opponent falls to the ground and takes falling damage plus the monk's power drop and earth press effects.
Earth Self: When the grand master stonefist reaches 20th level, his link to the Earth Lords is complete. They gain the Elemental type and the Earth and Native subtypes. This removes their need to eat sleep and breathe, and also become immune to critical hits and flanking.



Okay, what do we all think guys? What to keep, what to trash, how to prog this out? Ready, aim fire!
 
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Doctor Shaft

First Post
Flavor-wise, it sounds really good. You removed all the "elements" that the generic monk is commonly known for and replace with earth-based abilities. However...

I wonder how much utility many of those abilities have, and what benefits there would be to taking an "earth monk" over say a generic monk. Or maybe this is just your replacement for your campaign, in which case there's no real need for comparison.

Grapple for a monk is already quite poor. The abilities your earth variant offers is quite powerful... if the monk could actually grapple his opponents. A fighter with full BAB would put such abilities to far better use.

I definitely appreciate the flavor of your earth-variant, but he seems to be a one-trick pony in that half of his "offensive abilities" rely on a successful trip or a successful grapple.

I saw the races of stone of feat chain mastery offer, and perhaps that would be the "solution," but a monk already suffers from MAD on top of the low BAB. Giving to hit bonuses on the ground would alleviate the one weakness, but you'd still have a monk that is either struggling to keep a decent AC (Dex, Wis) or has low AC and high STR, but is can now only use its special moves in very unique or specific situations.

For instance, the breath mastery power is potent... against air opponents. Outside of that, the utility is far less than what diamond body and diamond soul offer for regular monks.

Stoneskin seems to give the AC advantage, but I'm assuming that's more a "high level" ability? I can't say I'd be any good at creating a balanced character class, and I will admit that I'm not the first guy you would go to in terms of analyzing a class and its abilities.
 

DamionW

First Post
Doctor Shaft-

Thanks for weighing in. The variant classes I've linked to are the replacements for most standard versions in the PHB (there are still standard rangers, but the barbarian, paladin and monk are 1:1 swaps) in my campaign. As for it being geared solely vs. air opponents, that's by design because that's who these earth monks have been training to take down. As for most of the abilities being grapple or trip oriented, I did that because that fits the idea of using the ground and earth against their opponent. If other people have good earth-based attack variants, I'd be interested. Those were just a starting point for the thread.

As for balancing, I'm basically trying to make these as close to a balanced swap for the basic classes in the book as I can given the elemental flavor. I'm trying to avoid any one variant outshadowing say a "vanilla" rogue, for example, because that's still a PC option. I just want to take some of these classes and make flavor and mechanical changes to match the fact they're coming from cultures that have been devoted to a specific element and to it's respective struggle (air vs. earth or water vs Fire) for centuries. However, I don't want to make them so specialized they look more like PrCs than base classes, so I use the core classes and make as close to 1:1 ability swaps as I can.

Take a look at the other elemental variants and see if that gives you some ideas. And again, thanks for taking the time!
 
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Kisanji Arael

First Post
I thought of a few cool powers.

Ki Strike: 2nd level --cold iron.

Evasion: As normal, beginning at fourth level.

Slam Ground: The monk may slam the ground near one opponent, causing a mild shockwave to go forth. At (1st level of power), this opponent must be the same size as or smaller than the monk. At (next level), he can slam the ground below opponents one size category larger. At (final level), the opponent can be up to three sizes larger than the monk.

Fertile Embrace: Once/week, when gravely injured, the monk may merge with the earth. He sinks into the ground (and disperses), reemerging 24 hours later, having recovered 5 hit points per class level. He cannot be damaged while in this state except by grave damage to the earth within one mile of where he dispersed.

(possible quivering palm replacement)
Stone Touch: The monk must meditate for seven hours before he uses this power, and may not use this technique more than once every three days (NOTE: This phrase has replaced almost all 1/week abilities IMC), but retains the charge for an infinite amount of time. The power effectively emulates the flesh to stone power, except that the material affected need not be flesh, and that the range must be touch. The monk can also reverse his own stone touch at will.

I would also suggest (since they are lawful) that they be able to end curses if they feel them undeserved.

Could you please specify the earth mastery feat chain?
 

DamionW

First Post
Those are pretty good. I actually meant to put in cold iron myself. What do you think about the ones I have so far? Any I should toss?
 

Thia Halmades

First Post
The original Monk makes his way towards the status of "outsider" - yours ends as an Earth Ele (glad you liked that one). Why are you removing Diamond? Immunity to poison seems reasonable here. Everything I know I learned from Pokemon, and I know I can't poison a rock. Just seems like an odd choice to me.

Ki Strike: I would suggest replacing 'magic' with at first their counter element at least; i.e., counts as a magic weapon for overcoming defenses of Air/Wind based creatures. Or, you could give them Smite Air, which would almost seem to fit this concept without going overboard. Later, they might learn how to deal with the defenses of Fire & Water creatures as well.

Leap Tackle: This almost seems bizarre, but I can see where one would train to pull someone out of the sky if that was their big complaint. "No flying! You, get down!" If a Monk takes Improved Trip, and thus does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, this may be a little over-powered. Does a Leap Tackle provoke an AoO? Because it sounds like it should.

More coffee.

Stone Skin you probably want to work in a slightly weaker version of. I'm checking the SRD for other spell-like body buffs. However, since Stoneskin is 10/Adamantine, the odds of them being hit by anything other than another Monk are pretty slim. You may simply want to give them low-grade DR, although channeling to produce an effect of that magnitude would also fit. I like Kisanji's 1/3 days version, although I'm usually an X/day person myself.

Removing Diamond Soul (SR +10) and replacing with Grounded Soul (Elec. Immunity/Wind Res + 10) makes sense to me, as we also know from Pokemon that Earth grounds Electric attacks. This may even improve later (see my notes on Barbarian). However, I don't know if you want to simply give them immunity straight up. Mind you, in the "the world is cognizant" argument, it's possible Wind types have learned not to try frying the Earth Monks. That's a separate question, though.

Fast Movement: Oddly, I disagree with this. Whereas I see Fire as being blazingly fast and capable of consuming just about everything in its wake, Earth is considered slow. It moves when it's good and ready. I agree with your inclusion of the Dwarf steadying attributes, and that's a theme I would build on in direct exchange. Also, there may be something in the Psionics handbook making it nearly impossible to remove someone from the ground they've attached too. I would flip those directly. Instead of making them fast, make them immovable. Having now checked the Psionics handbook, I can't find it, if I do, I shall make with the posting. But, immovable. Wouldn't happen until later, but it makes sense.

I endorse Kisanji's flip from "Death Touch" to "Stone Touch." I specifically endorse becuase I thought of it, but didn't post last night while I was running my campaign. I wouldn't personally change the mechanics, but that's a whole separate discussion.

Anything that doesn't make sense attribute to my lack of having consumed a pot of coffee.

Good morning!
 

Aus_Snow

First Post
Thia Halmades said:
Fast Movement: Oddly, I disagree with this. Whereas I see Fire as being blazingly fast and capable of consuming just about everything in its wake, Earth is considered slow. It moves when it's good and ready. I agree with your inclusion of the Dwarf steadying attributes, and that's a theme I would build on in direct exchange. Also, there may be something in the Psionics handbook making it nearly impossible to remove someone from the ground they've attached too. I would flip those directly. Instead of making them fast, make them immovable.
I agree, but I don't know offhand which Psionic thing you mean, unfortunately.


As for the class in general though, I like the flavour and what I can determine (at this moment) of the balance etc. I think Fire is a natural fit for the Barbarian by the way, so that one's less inherently problematic, IMO. Water is an interesting choice for Paladins (reminds me of the group of Paladins dedicated to a certain sea goddess in Birthright, for no good reason that springs to mind). Air <-> Ranger, that's a bit more of an easy fit, I believe.

I think it's great that you've gone at things a bit 'oddly' with Rangers and Monks though (to my mind). What would automatically occur to me is Air Monks and Earth Rangers. Having them that way round would involve a lot less changes, but then you wouldn't have ended up with these more interesting versions.

An intriguing set of variants. I like. :)
 
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DamionW

First Post
Morning Thia. Hope you've gooten your coffee.

Diamond Body - While you can't poison a rock, it's an ability I see as expendable and not central to the Earth theme. If I want to add in other cool abilities, that's one I feel is worth trading off. Don't picture them spending as much time building poison immunity as electrical resistance, for ex.

Ki Strike - Not much that has DR in the air creature area. Smite Air might be a better idea.

Leap tackle - Most of the earth monks abilities are reliant on him being on the ground. Many of the air enemies fly. This naturally leads to monks training to take enemies from the sky down to the ground. As for the mechanics, they may seem bizarre, but if someone else can come up with a better idea, I'm up for it. AoO's are as per trip attacks, so if he has Improved Trip, no AoOs. As for it being powerful, he'd need some serious Jump ranks to get anything higher than 30' off of the ground. But like I said, if people have a better idea for this kind of "aerial snatch" maneuver, I'd like to hear it.

Stone Skin is meant to be 1/1 replacement of the abundant step's dimension door ability. Both are 4th level wizard spells, so I figured it'd work, and with Monk AC sucking as is, this'd be an interesting replacement as I see it.

Diamond Soul -> Grounded Soul: I figured Diamond Body could swap for the grounding stance and Soul for Imp. Grounding Stance. That's what seemed to work for me in my mental balancing game, but not sure.

Fast Movement -> I understand how earth is slow and deliberate, the problem comes that most of their abilities come from needing to get close to their opponents, especially the quick air opponents. This ability would fall under their "becoming the enemy" mindset. The Dwarven fighters decked out and full plate cover the earth is slow niche. These monks are designed to move in and take down their opponents, so I want them to have some improved movement, but as I noted, I'm willing to slow down the progression a lot.

Quivering Palm -> Stone Touch. It is a good replacement, I'll work on it.

Great ideas here. I'll start progging out a level advancement for these guys.
 

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