Edition Fatigue

[amnuxoll]

I think that d20/SRD was designed to address this very issue. By making a base set of flexible rules anyone can make or play whatever they want. Is d20 perfect? No. But's it's a good stab at creating an immutable base game that can be played by itself or expanded in infinite ways as the players see fit.

FWIW, GURPS is the same thing. The "U" in GURPS stands for Universal for a reason. It's not a bad system either.

Overall, I think it's a pragmatic approach to game publishing. The problem (from WotC's point of view) is that it rewards the best (i.e., most imaginative, well-written, fun, etc.) products rather than letting big publishers like WotC capitalize on their market dominance to sell mediocre products to people because they are "official."

 

[ssampier]

To shut us all up WotC should make D&D like this:
Core rules: Very barebones, like OD&D/BD&D, very small. This is your skeleton.
Secondary rules: These add new classes and monsters.
Third round: Detail. This level breaks down into a simplified array of supplements, including feats, skills and more combat and magic options.

Each level of this is color coded so there is no question about where you are at.

Similar to this:

Core rules: Dungeons & Dragons (basically a board game with dice and cardboard minis; I own this one)
Secondary: D&D Rules Cyclopedia
Tertiary: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

?

I think Wizards has the right idea with the Red Box. They even called the Red Box a starter set, not a "basic set."

 

[beepeearr]

It would be pretty strange, I think, to see many people taking basic Catan and playing it every single week for two or three years. But, that's precisely what we expect D&D players to do. Get your core three books and play a campaign for a couple of years.

You know, I used to think the same thing, but I know people who do just this. Every week my aunt (a literal soccer mom) and uncle play settlers with their friends, with just the seafarers expansion (and fishes, not sure if that is part of seafarers are separate). They play every Saturday, two-three games, for the past 4 years.

Granted it's not quite the same as playing "basic" settlers, but the OP wasn't suggesting just basic D&D either, he was saying D&D with expansions, leave the base as is, and then expand. Make each expansion a stand alone product requiring only the basic set. This way if it turns out something does need to be fixed, you can fix just that expansion, without affecting the base rules or other expansions.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You know, I used to think the same thing, but I know people who do just this. Every week my aunt (a literal soccer mom) and uncle play settlers with their friends, with just the seafarers expansion (and fishes, not sure if that is part of seafarers are separate). They play every Saturday, two-three games, for the past 4 years.

As does my wife. I introduced her to Catan. Now she meets once a month with a group of her girlfriends to play Catan for the past year and a half. More often than I can get together with my D&D group it seems!

 

[prosfilaes]

All markets can theoretically be seen as marching towards saturation, inasmuch as theoretically once 6.5 billion people all have all of your product that they need, you can't sell anymore until people start having to replace it or new people get born.

But this isn't anything like the size 16 shoe market, and that's because people's feet don't actually grow. They stay the same size.

So what do we need to do to get "Topology: an introduction with application to topological groups" into every household? Everyone can appreciate good mathematics, can't they? While we're at it, with a little better marketing, they'll all be listening to mathcore music, too.

It may not be as concrete as size 16 shoes, but most everything has a limited market.

The other is Steve Jackson Games with GURPS; it has had more significant changes over time but again, I don't think that a highly complicated generic system could ever have the appeal of D&D,

Ha. I created a character over the past few days for D&D 3.5. The final character took 9 books, and I looked at a few more in the process. It took many hours. The only way I can see GURPS 4 needing anywhere near 9 books is if you were making a dungeon fantasy character mage/psionist/martial artist--and even then, the Dungeon Fantasy material is more akin to the guides to making good mages I consulted rather then actual rules material.

which alone among all the role playing games I can think of seems to possess the strange alchemy of commercial potential.

Why? On one hand, I would say that history proves you wrong; the White Wolf games were stunningly successful in their day. On the other, I would say the hugest factor is that D&D managed to hit it big and get a lock on the public consciousness. I don't know what it would take to replicate the events of the early 1980s, for D&D or any game, but personally I'm not blaming TSR for the decay in the market; that's what fads do.

As long as RPG's keep presenting themselves as these daunting 100 to 5,000 page RPG's it is going to keep itself locked up within its niche because the bigger market will never risk investing its time into learning such a huge product.

Show me one smaller RPG that's a success. FUDGE hasn't done horribly, but it hasn't made any of the authors enough to devote time solely to FUDGE. TWERPS was interesting, but didn't seem to get any real audience. Not only that, if you can't sell a huge group of roleplayers on it, you can't afford to sell it to the outer world. Only Hasbro has remotely enough money to try and sell an RPG on TV and other mass-market sources.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth was, what...40 pages? 60?

And it was a fully realized FRPG. Not perfect, no, but easy to learn and fun to play. So it CAN be done.

The trick is marketing it, because most people I know who aren't in the hobby just start zoning out when you talk about roleplaying (after you clear up the fact you're NOT talking about the Naughty French Maid and her Lonely Boss).

And the thing is, I don't think the market is ripe for targeting an RPG like that to the general public without attaching it to a MAJOR property. IOW, you could currently do well with a rules light game with LotR, Harry Potter, Aliens, Predator, or perhaps one of the big comics producers.

And the problem with THAT is, unless there's an "advanced" version of the game, the terms of the IP license would put this game at a competitive disadvantage with more classically designed RPGs.

 

[Odhanan]

Show me one smaller RPG that's a success.

Original Dungeons & Dragons, 1974. Arguably, without that small RPG's success, we would not have any of these big 5,000 pages RPGs to play with. And yes, I do think this is a very relevant example, mostly because it is a game that is still incredibly fun to play, extremely light on the page count (requires an understanding of Chainmail, though), with a fantastic potential for emergent complexity and customizability. This, to me, is the winning game design that should be emulated.

 

[Treebore]

Show me one smaller RPG that's a success. FUDGE hasn't done horribly, but it hasn't made any of the authors enough to devote time solely to FUDGE. TWERPS was interesting, but didn't seem to get any real audience. Not only that, if you can't sell a huge group of roleplayers on it, you can't afford to sell it to the outer world. Only Hasbro has remotely enough money to try and sell an RPG on TV and other mass-market sources.

If the vast majority of gamers don't even know FUDGE exists how is anyone outside of the niche market going to even know? Not a good analogy.

 

[Emberion]

Edition fatigue...that's what I would call it. Just when I caught up with 4E, essentials came out, and not that it doesn't look like great stuff, and that it would be really fun, my bookshelves are buckling already, my bank account whimpering, and my enthusiasm waning. After I saw the collectible fortune telling cards, whatever they are, could be a hoax or the coolest thing since sliced bread, the concept-the very notion of their existence-sent me into a catatonic slumber of complete apathy for all things 4E and essential related. It had been coming for some time, regardless of what was being released. Like an iv with a slow drip of mind-numbing anesthetic the revisions rolled out and I became more fatigued with each drop. The big drops, the essential line in particularly, had already caused severe paralysis on the purchasing front.

And now I have cancelled my D&D insider account. I haven't even logged into it in months. Originally, I was going to download all of the pdfs (just in case I ever awoke from this), but I lacked even the motivation to do that.

I am seriously considering putting my whole 4E library (minus a few truly essential books...not D&D Essential books, mind you, but the PHB and DMG and so forth) that I accumulated on Ebay or Amazon..not because I hate the game, or would never play it again, just ...so...very...tired

 

[Dungeoneer]

After I saw the collectible fortune telling cards...

Whoa, really?

"I draw from the Fortune Telling Card deck."'

"Okay. It's 'Winds of Change' - next time you are hit with an attack you may shift one square and gain a +2 bonus to all defenses, and your girlfriend is going to leave you and take your favorite band shirt."