Edition Fatigue

[shadzar]

[MENTION=6667746]shadzar[/MENTION]:
That´s like calling a pizza a gyros. Well, they put "medieval" on the cover but besides some trappings, there isn´t anything medieval inside (and with this, I also mean fantasy medieval).

How so? I dont just mean for that book, but others as well as other editions.

What was really missing from making it medieval?

 

[billd91]

Wasn´t he talking about non-combat stuff for players? I don´t think the DMG should enter the argument then. Else, I think 4E DMG 1&2 hold up pretty well when it comes to non-combat ideas and such.

No, Hussar was talking about random encounter tables. How exactly those would factor into what a player needs, I don't know. So basically I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

[Nagol]

How so? I dont just mean for that book, but others as well as other editions.

What was really missing from making it medieval?

• A social class system that reflects the period
• A basic discussion regarding Low Justice, High Justice, and Church Justice
• The roles of Church, nobility, and peasantry
• A discussion on feudalism, nobility, knighthoods (all types), reflecting the obligations and perks.
• A discussion on Christianity, Judaism, Islam and paganism and the ability for a character to be from those religions.

Now Chivalry and Sorcery -- there is a game that had medieval basis.

 

[Elton Robb]

• A social class system that reflects the period
• A basic discussion regarding Low Justice, High Justice, and Church Justice
• The roles of Church, nobility, and peasantry
• A discussion on feudalism, nobility, knighthoods (all types), reflecting the obligations and perks.
• A discussion on Christianity, Judaism, Islam and paganism and the ability for a character to be from those religions.

Now Chivalry and Sorcery -- there is a game that had medieval basis.

And Ars Magica, and Pendragon, and . . .

There's a lot of them.

 

[Coldwyn]

• A social class system that reflects the period
• A basic discussion regarding Low Justice, High Justice, and Church Justice
• The roles of Church, nobility, and peasantry
• A discussion on feudalism, nobility, knighthoods (all types), reflecting the obligations and perks.
• A discussion on Christianity, Judaism, Islam and paganism and the ability for a character to be from those religions.

Now Chivalry and Sorcery -- there is a game that had medieval basis.

To add further to that, let´s remove the stuff from D&D that isn´t medieval:
- Frontier mentality
- Taming the wildernes
- Low population figures
- Dangerous overland travel
- Individual rights
- Natives & Barbarias

 

[Nagol]

To add further to that, let´s remove the stuff from D&D that isn´t medieval:
- Frontier mentality
- Taming the wildernes
- Low population figures
- Dangerous overland travel
- Individual rights
- Natives & Barbarias

To be fair, you can find medieval areas with wilderness frontiers, dangerous overland travel, and barbarian equivalents (Huns, Mongols) -- Eastern slavic regions and other areas pushing east and north of the Byzantines.

 

[shadzar]

1. A social class system that reflects the period
2. A basic discussion regarding Low Justice, High Justice, and Church Justice
3. The roles of Church, nobility, and peasantry
4. A discussion on feudalism, nobility, knighthoods (all types), reflecting the obligations and perks.
5. A discussion on Christianity, Judaism, Islam and paganism and the ability for a character to be from those religions.

Now Chivalry and Sorcery -- there is a game that had medieval basis.

1. That was there and discussed throughout MANY books and adventures and how the kingdoms were run

2. This also was there.

3. There again, just augmented for the game since there was more close relations to deities

4. I would say those roles are clearly covered in the positions they held.

5. I hope nobody has to explain why those are not there...The game wouldnt be here today if they had been because there would have been more from "D&D has people summoning demons from books" crowds had it reference real world religions. Worse, if you had kids/teens/etc playing Christians going out in the game killing Jews.

All that you claim is lacking to make it medieval it is not. It is just toned down so that you can add back the heavier part if you want them, or can take the game into even more fantastic and out of this world directions.

Pretty much you just wanted a exact replica of a medieval setting to play in before you would accept it was medieval?

The games state pseudo-,edieval for a reason, adding too much would confine the game and not leave the room to grow for things like Athas, Krynn, Toril that were not exactly King Arthur, etc. As well not forcing feudilism means you can add whatever society you want for your group, while others can have what they want for theirs.

It was a plug-and-play system, where you could plug what was there into any style, but featured mostly the medieval themes, knights, kings, queens, paladin, etc.

Most people find the splatbooks to be a cause of fatigue, and hated them, but the green ones actually had your direct historical representation translations of the game.

WotC editions moved to off-world for the core parts of the game, I didnt see medieval mentioned much in 3rd if at all, and I dont think 4th edition touches it. TSR editions had it running through them at every turn.

The more you wanted you are able to add though to ANY edition.

The more you added you just would have stylized the game too much to one area of time and world that it might not have survived until today. You have your "trappings": no guns so before Renaissance, and iron was a staple so we have gone into the iron age, science and technology is starting, so that places D&D right into fantasy early middle ages (medieval), 5th~15th century.

That is a lots of years to cover in that 1000 years worth. In particular regarding your 5 points, most of those were constantly changing over that period of time.

 

[Coldwyn]

[MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION]: Let´s define what we´re talking about. When I mean western medieval, I mean 600 - 1500 AD and from Portugal to Great Britan and France to Greater Germany with Sweden added.
That´s all known and settled country. You could even go further east to Marienburg or cross over to the african continent.

Travel on the Kings Roads/Salt Transit Ways was damn safe as there were actually no robber knights or brigands until the end of the late middle ages.
Huns and Mongols also weren´t really in sight.

[MENTION=6667746]shadzar[/MENTION]: It´s hard to explain, maybe because im missing the vocabulary to do so. Still I´ll try:

Medieval society is mostly one thing: absolutelly immobile. Until the Black Death, there was no movement, neither physical nor social, no exceptions.
I´ve read a good amount of TSR/WotC books and no, that stuff isn´t covered at all.

For me, a useable medieval setting should be based on 4 pillars: piety - power - station - corruption. Pendragon does that right, for example, whereas D&D describes the lawless frontiers of the wild west instead.

[Edit] Just an afterthought, take a look into Darklands which can be found on abandonia.

 

[Nagol]

I was going to do a point by point counterpoint, but I have work to do so I'll leave it by simply saying D&D in all of its core incarnations does not include the points I raise. Some optional (usually late cycle) material in some editions did cover some of it somewhat often as description rather than with mechnical effect.

I have seen games that were published and were medieval-based RPGs that do cover those points with depth and mechanical effect (i.e. rules as opposed to description) as part of their core.

Chivalry and Sorcery is very much like a complex version of 1e that is firmly set in a medieval society and published in the late '70s. It pretty much covers all of my points in its core.

Pendragon is an Arthurian game using Chaosium's BRP system and covers some of my points, but its focus is a very narrow timeframe inside Britain.

Ars Magica (one of my favourites for other reasons) has a fantasy version of historical Europe as its default setting and covers a few of my points in depth in the core system.

 

[Nagol]

[MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION]: Let´s define what we´re talking about. When I mean western medieval, I mean 600 - 1500 AD and from Portugal to Great Britan and France to Greater Germany with Sweden added.
That´s all known and settled country. You could even go further east to Marienburg or cross over to the african continent.

Travel on the Kings Roads/Salt Transit Ways was damn safe as there were actually no robber knights or brigands until the end of the late middle ages.
Huns and Mongols also weren´t really in sight.

[MENTION=6667746]shadzar[/MENTION]: It´s hard to explain, maybe because im missing the vocabulary to do so. Still I´ll try:

Medieval society is mostly one thing: absolutelly immobile. Until the Black Death, there was no movement, neither physical nor social, no exceptions.
I´ve read a good amount of TSR/WotC books and no, that stuff isn´t covered at all.

I tend to narrow to timeframe from about 600 - 1300. I expand the geography in include the Byzantine Empire, areas north of the Black Sea, and down into the Iberian peninsula (Aragon, Navarre, et al.).

I agree roman road/King's Road travel tended to be reasonably safe and trouble free (save when confronted with war).

Medieval socierty did have some travel -- religious pilgrimages were reasonably common even to very distant sections (England to the Holy Land -- pilgrims that went to the Levant region were known as Palmists and told the most outrageous tales upon their return) and war called across the territories. Still, I agree you typically didn't travel as far as the next county to buy anything and social mobility was somewhat rare.