D&D 3E/3.5 Eliminating Class and Cross-Class Skills (3.5)

[ValhallaGH]

On the other hand, certain skills (Hide, Move Silently, Spot) are so useful for adventuring that each PC will have a substantial number of ranks in them.

And ... ?
Believe it or not, those are all individual skills. The results affect the individual and cannot steal the limelight from another PC.

So, any actual concerns you have? UMD is limited by wealth and availability (both under the DM's direct control) so that skill is manageable.


What I would be worried about are the "I win D&D skills," also known as Bluff and Diplomacy. With max ranks, max synergies, and a couple of feats, characters can reasonably have a +10 to +20 in these by level 2. That is something to worry about, the ability to use a single die roll and a few words to end every encounter that's not against mindless creatures.
Never forget the power of speaking well.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't think it changes things much at all to forget cross-class skills. How many characters ever actually put ranks in skills that cost twice as much? Very few. They were basically forbidden, which wasn't fun. It's already possible to get max ranks in a skill if you're the right class; the fact that every character can do it changes little.

Characters are still limited by the number of skill points they have and the number of actions in a round. They're also still guided by the same principles. Your mages will still take Concentration, Spellcraft and Knowledge. Your rogues will still take skills for stealth, perception, and agility. Even your fighters probably will take Intimidate, Swim, and Jump just like always.

Class skill lists were really just 'recommended skill' lists and were mostly for beginners anyway. Losing them isn't a big deal.

 

[Greg K]

I, personally, like class skills and cross class skills. However, I also
a. increase the 2+Int classes to 4+Int unless intelligence is the prime ability score
b. utilize class customization as per the PHB
c. utilize the urban/wilderness skill switches from the Cityscape enhancement
d. utilize several UA class variants
e. occassionally, implement d20Modern style backgrounds.

 

[Celebrim]

How many characters ever actually put ranks in skills that cost twice as much?

In any given group, about 1/3rd of my players will have some points invested in cross class skills. Balance, spot, and listen are all particularly attractive choices because no one else can do them for you, and just a few ranks can have large dividends.

Class skill lists were really just 'recommended skill' lists and were mostly for beginners anyway.

Not everyone that disagrees with you considers themselves a beginner.

 

[Jacob Marley]

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - I really like your Versatile Background suggestion. I think that goes a long way toward solving the "problem" I have with the 3.5 skill system.

I am planning on presenting my players with a few options; there are quite a few good ones in this thread.

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[MENTION=41187]ValhallaGH[/MENTION] - My group's playstyle tends to devalue the social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy). Situations in which many groups would be rolling a Bluff (etc.) check tend to be handled more by DM/Player interaction and DM fiat in my group. Hide & Move Silently and Listen & Spot, though, tend to have a greater impact on our game as those are the skills that determine whether the players and/or monsters will be able to act in a surprise round.

 

[Ahnehnois]

In any given group, about 1/3rd of my players will have some points invested in cross class skills. Balance, spot, and listen are all particularly attractive choices because no one else can do them for you, and just a few ranks can have large dividends.



Not everyone that disagrees with you considers themselves a beginner.

Not meant as a slight, that's just my experience with the skill system. YMMV as always. Apologies if that came off the wrong way.

 

[nonsi256]

I, personally, like class skills and cross class skills. However, I also
a. increase the 2+Int classes to 4+Int unless intelligence is the prime ability score
b. utilize class customization as per the PHB
c. utilize the urban/wilderness skill switches from the Cityscape enhancement
d. utilize several UA class variants
e. occassionally, implement d20Modern style backgrounds.

Ok, I'm a bit lost here.
If you basically allow a way to circumvent CC skills altogether, then what's the point in having them in the first place, if their impact amounts to nothing other than to waste your time circumventing them ?​

 

[Alexander123]

What I would be worried about are the "I win D&D skills," also known as Bluff and Diplomacy. With max ranks, max synergies, and a couple of feats, characters can reasonably have a +10 to +20 in these by level 2. That is something to worry about, the ability to use a single die roll and a few words to end every encounter that's not against mindless creatures.

These two spells are not I win D&D skills. Such abuse, like infinite wishes, only takes place if the DM allows it to take place. If the DM is playing creatures intelligently, he will not have them make stupid decisions just because the PCs have a high diplomacy or bluff modifier. He will have the NPC thinking of his own long-term rational self-interest and making decisions based on that.

 

[TanisFrey]

What I would be worried about are the "I win D&D skills," also known as Bluff and Diplomacy. With max ranks, max synergies, and a couple of feats, characters can reasonably have a +10 to +20 in these by level 2. That is something to worry about, the ability to use a single die roll and a few words to end every encounter that's not against mindless creatures.
Never forget the power of speaking well.

These two spells are not I win D&D skills. Such abuse, like infinite wishes, only takes place if the DM allows it to take place. If the DM is playing creatures intelligently, he will not have them make stupid decisions just because the PCs have a high diplomacy or bluff modifier. He will have the NPC thinking of his own long-term rational self-interest and making decisions based on that.

As a player and an occasional DM I would rule/ask the DM to remove the static DC for Bluff and Diplomacy.

I would also use the Pathfinder DC for Concentration skill, where you use spell level x 2 to determine the DC. This keeps the high level spell difficult to cast in melee.

 

[Greg K]

Ok, I'm a bit lost here.
If you basically allow a way to circumvent CC skills altogether, then what's the point in having them in the first place, if their impact amounts to nothing other than to waste your time circumventing them ?​

As the DM, I use them to tailor the classes based upon the cultures of the given campaign world that I am runnning. Once that is done, I can work with players to tailor classes further or create a new variant based upon the background (if it is approprate to the setting and a given culture). So, it is not the player circumventing it in a vaccuum and once play starts the character still has cross-class skills