Elminster's Guide to Deities and Avatars

Ash Mantle

Adventurer
I would like to see a power that gives more AC. Divine Armor- gives avatars +5 AC, +10, or +15 depending on their status. This may be a bit high with a greater god in plate armor and shield now would have a 35AC. This could be +3,6,9 if you want, but I see most of the avatars not wearing plate mail, but more with no armor, or just light armor and this just compensates for the lack of plate.

The other thing I can see each avatar having is the ability to summon reinforcements. I see the legendary action to summon some sea creatures, but I was thinking of some sort of angel/demon soldiers. Being a legendary action means that they can be summoned each round. If this is the case, I can see the summoned be weaker than if the power was 1/rest or 1/day power, even recharge. A hoard of CR 1/2 can still hit the PCs while being wiped out each round and CR3 soldiers can take a few hits. I was thinking of CR3,6,9 depending on the status of the god.

I like the idea you are presenting and I look forward to seeing more. I have never had any of my groups fight an avatar, but maybe some of the evil gods would be handy to have.

An increasing AC salient ability is a cool idea. I'll see what I can do to increase AC in certain deities; a god like Helm would be all about that. Having said that, I actually like the nature of bounded accuracy in 5e and working within the confines of the flattened numbers we're seeing, and the fact that lower-tier threats still remain as threats throughout the CR system.

The summon reinforcements idea is also pretty cool. I've basically been basing the summons used in Valkur's statblock and potential subsequent statblocks on the fiend summoning powers of certain monsters.

Also, thanks heaps.
 

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Ash Mantle

Adventurer
This is where I think you're wrong. A God is unwinnable fight by any standard, since a mortal can never slay one which is why they never give Gods stats, or primordials for that matter. Avatars are merely a part of a God's essence and can be killed. The exception of course are Demigods who are so weak, they can be killed by very powerful mortals. Again, the part a DM plays in the story is to bring challenging scenarios, not hopeless ones.

I would likewise argue fighting the avatar of a greater god would also entail a near unwinnable fight at the worst or an exceedingly, perhaps horrendously, difficult one.
Avatars can be killed but that also doesn't mean fighting one would be easy or even achievable without sufficiently powerful abilities, allies or weapons.

Lathander is actually one of the worst offenders of being a monster in combat. In the Cult of the Dragon 2e sourcebook, an army of Harpers was losing against Sammaster, by this time a level 26 Necromancer and his cultist allies, undead horde, dragon allies, and enslaved extraplanar creatures. These Harpers prayed to Lathander for his divine aid and Lathander sent down a battle avatar. Lathander basically decimated that opposing army.

Outraged at the future Sammaster prophesied and the abominations of creation he had perpetrated unceasingly, Lathander sent a battle avatar to the field. The undead creatures forming a wall around Sammaster disintegrated in a flash of light as the full glory of the god of the dawn touched them, but the choking ash of their remains clogged the air immediately as an unearthly wind howled forth from Sammaster, forming the ash into a cloud that obscured the sky and turned the dawn light red as blood. Sammaster's dracolich steed breathed a massive gout of dragonfire upon the golden breastplate of the Morninglord, only to scream an unearthly keening wail that faded into nothing as Dawnspeaker, Lathander's mace, smote its head and disrupted its unliving existence.
Sammaster, seemingly untroubled, floated in midair where his steed had been, and in the twinkling of an eye a coruscating aura of ineffable blackness surrounded him, as if a cloak of night and death had been knit about his body.
His eyes glowed dark purple, and he gestured with his staff, and a mighty turning wheel of faintly glowing energy appeared between him and Lathander. Energy, the auras streaming out from every living and undead being on the battlefield except Lathander and Sanmaster, appeared as multicolored threads, and all of them were being sucked into the wheel, spun around, and pulled tight. Within an instant, all were taut.
Those who were there speak in what accounts remain of a sharp pain followed by a sense of anticipation, as if some huge 'thing' waited just beyond the doorways of their senses to happen. What happened next is recalled by very few, and only in dreamlike snatches, as past this point apparently only Sammaster and Lathander could move.
Lathander looked upon Sammaster and a fierce delight seemed to play behind his eyes. "Abomination," he cried, "die!" Crackling streams of lightning and golden radiance poured out from his eyes, assaulting Sammaster with deadly force. Sammaster's skeleton was visible briefly, glowing like an inner light within his corporeal form, and he convulsed suddenly in midair, dropping his staff as his fingers curled into claws. Then, with a tremendous effort, he reached up and sideways with his left hand to elsewhere and drew back a single thin sheet of metal glinting with a faint, silvery sheen. Strange symbols and glyphs crawled across its surface.
Sammaster held it up before him, as if to force Lathander to read it. "Fool!" Lathander thundered, and Dawnspeaker came down resoundingly through the metallic scroll and into Sammaster, whose body twisted in the aftershock of the blow and then, miraculously, started to straighten. The scroll shattered in all directions into a million slivers of light, but one small, dagger-shaped piece stuck in the golden plate armor above Lathander's heart, scratching his chest, and four drops of his blood fell to the ground at his feet. (After the battle these were gathered up in an amber flask by a priest of the Morninglord from the village of Hap. Today this holy relic of the Morninglord'ss church is revered as the artifact, the Blood of Lathander.) Lathander reached out with one hand and crushed the wheel of spellstuff that held all in thrall while twin globes of dull red and black flew from Sammaster'ss hands to burst against Lathander'ss breastplate ineffectually. Lathander gestured, and a hole of light was ripped through the flying ash that obscured the sun. Light brighter than any who witnessed the event ever saw before or later in their lives shot down through the hole, cloaking Sammaster from view.
Sammaster did not have time to even scream as he was instantly killed, apparently incinerated in the sun's fire. Upon investigation of the battlefield later, nothing remained of him but about two pounds of fine ash.

They actually did give the actual gods stats in the Faiths and Avatars supplement line. The gods themselves get immortality, teleportation, initiative (when dealing with mortals, all powers automatically receive the initiative), communication, magic use, immunities (takes a +1 or better magic weapon to be able to damage to a demipower or lesser power, a +2 or better magic weapon to be able to damage an intermediate power, a +3 or better magical weapon to be able to damage a greater power), and each strata of divinity has abilities like shapeshifting, magic resistance, really good saving throws, sensing abilities, creation, life and death, multitasking, avatars, etc. These were basically the precursors to the 3e salient divine abilities.

I'm not great with 4e, but I believe they gave gods stats in that edition, as well as primordials?
 

Ash Mantle

Adventurer
I have Bane, Tiamat, and Maglubiyet over at my 5e Epic Monster Updates thread, so I would prefer he/she take a stab at some of the others. :)

Back in my 3.5e homebrewing days, I made some deities which can be found here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?111306-Of-Deities-and-Demigods
And subsequently suffered burnout lol.
I was thinking of leaving Tiamat and Maglubiyet for the time being and instead concentrate on designing some others. And I'm a dude.

Very cool, and thank you for sharing. If your interested I have some first drafts of epic monsters, including gods, over at my 5e Epic Monster Updates thread. There are over 150 epic level monsters.

Those first drafts are not RAW, but RAW adjacent ;) I was trying to compensate for some of the flaws I believe are inherent with high level monsters. Ultimately I don't think it was completely successful. I will be working on a revised approach in the 2nd drafts. I hope to role those out later in the summer or early fall. I would love to add some of the content you develop in this thread if your interested.

No worries and thank you for sharing your thread, it's all pretty cool. I was initially thinking of designing outside of the bounded accuracy window, but ultimately I really liked bounded accuracy and the freedom it offers as a design space. Especially in light of the current slew of monsters we have officially. In my initial design of some of the 3.5e deities, I basically statted out their true divine forms and like you, I don't think I was completely successful, and their design basically was a timesink.

And that definitely would be sweet as. Thanks heaps.
 

dave2008

Legend
Back in my 3.5e homebrewing days, I made some deities which can be found here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?111306-Of-Deities-and-Demigods
And subsequently suffered burnout lol.

I will check it out! Yep, I got a little burned out myself and I am taking the summer off before I revise all of them (and add some) for the 2nd drafts.

I was thinking of leaving Tiamat and Maglubiyet for the time being and instead concentrate on designing some others.
I look forward to what you come up with.

And I'm a dude.
Good to know :)

No worries and thank you for sharing your thread, it's all pretty cool. I was initially thinking of designing outside of the bounded accuracy window, but ultimately I really liked bounded accuracy and the freedom it offers as a design space. Especially in light of the current slew of monsters we have officially. In my initial design of some of the 3.5e deities, I basically statted out their true divine forms and like you, I don't think I was completely successful, and their design basically was a timesink.

Yes, my 2nd drafts will pull back into BA more closely. I found a method to make gods more powerful without just giving them higher numbers and thus destroying BA. That being said, I don't feel they were a waste of time. First, I enjoy making them. Second, I got a rough drafts with a lot of good ideas on a bunch of epic creatures. Converting them to an adjusted format should go a lot quicker than making them from scratch.

And that definitely would be sweet as. Thanks heaps.
Awesome! Thank you!
 

Ash Mantle

Adventurer
The rules for gods in 5th edition are given in a sidebar in the DMG. Per the rules there, demigods can't grant divine spells and don't have clerics, so that Valkur (for instance) would receive a "promotion" in 5e to a lesser god. Lesser gods have physical bodies that can be slain by mortals, but if they die anywhere other than their home plane, they merely discorporate and reform in their divine realm (thus, if the heroes killed Tiamat when she was trying to enter Faerun, she didn't die for good.) As far as I can tell, lesser gods don't get avatars. Greater deities can form physical bodies equivalent to that of a lesser god, called an avatar, but slaying the avatar anywhere has no effect on the greater god. Also, since Tiamat was classed as a Fiend, I would class any non-evil deity as a Celestial, in game terms. Nor would Valkur's form count as an avatar, and his divine rank of 3 seems to reference the 3e rules, which wouldn't apply here. But that's my take.

To convert the rank of a god from previous editions into 5e, I suggest the following: Demigods and Lesser gods = Lesser god in 5e. Intermediate and Greater gods = Greater god in 5e. Also, in the DMG under the Artifacts section it mentions using an Empyrean to represent a deity/avatar - handy if (like most gods) the deity is shaped like a humanoid and you don't have time to cook up god stats on the fly.

While I appreciate the sidebar on divinity in the DMG, I also see it as an optional rule. I'm moreso inspired by the 2e Faiths and Avatars line, 3e Faiths and Pantheons, 5e Tiamat and the other 5e high-tier monsters.
I also prefer the separation of divine strata into demi-, lesser, intermediate and greater divine tiers, as well as the distinction of divine rank. Divine rank is also informing a selection of mechanics and abilities in each avatar.

If the deities themselves were statted, perhaps they would likewise have corresponding types to Tiamat's fiend type, but otherwise as avatars they're probably more suited to the humanoid type.

What page is this on, I don't remember seeing this about lesser and Demigods.

That would be page 11 of the DMG, Sidebar on Divine Rank.
 


Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
By the 4e version of Bane, do you still mean the FR Bane or do you also mean the Nentir Vale Bane?
Yes. (Lotta help that is, right? :) ) Bane's FR portfolio changed during the 3e/4e crossover. I amalgamated the "Dawn War cosmos" Bane with FR for my own use.

What do you mean by 'with experience from the Tyranny of Dragon final fights?
Tyranny of Dragons is the two-book adventure set Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat.
The final fight in Rise of Tiamat is with Tiamat as she (or an avatar?) attempts to enter the Material World from her abode in the Hells. Some groups have been able to get all the way to the end and face off against her. I don't know if there IS a place where their descriptions and thoughts on the battle have been collected, but if so you can design an 'improved Tiamat' with any glaring weaknesses fixed.
 
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Mirtek

Hero
This is where I think you're wrong. A God is unwinnable fight by any standard, since a mortal can never slay one which is why they never give Gods stats, or primordials for that matter. s.
5e has already stated one true deity and one primordial.

The true deity at least was given CR30, the primordial only laughable CR22
 

neogod22

Explorer
I would likewise argue fighting the avatar of a greater god would also entail a near unwinnable fight at the worst or an exceedingly, perhaps horrendously, difficult one.
Avatars can be killed but that also doesn't mean fighting one would be easy or even achievable without sufficiently powerful abilities, allies or weapons.

Lathander is actually one of the worst offenders of being a monster in combat. In the Cult of the Dragon 2e sourcebook, an army of Harpers was losing against Sammaster, by this time a level 26 Necromancer and his cultist allies, undead horde, dragon allies, and enslaved extraplanar creatures. These Harpers prayed to Lathander for his divine aid and Lathander sent down a battle avatar. Lathander basically decimated that opposing army.


They actually did give the actual gods stats in the Faiths and Avatars supplement line. The gods themselves get immortality, teleportation, initiative (when dealing with mortals, all powers automatically receive the initiative), communication, magic use, immunities (takes a +1 or better magic weapon to be able to damage to a demipower or lesser power, a +2 or better magic weapon to be able to damage an intermediate power, a +3 or better magical weapon to be able to damage a greater power), and each strata of divinity has abilities like shapeshifting, magic resistance, really good saving throws, sensing abilities, creation, life and death, multitasking, avatars, etc. These were basically the precursors to the 3e salient divine abilities.

I'm not great with 4e, but I believe they gave gods stats in that edition, as well as primordials?
Here's the thing. I agree with your argument that a God or Avatar should be hard, but that does not justify the defense of broken abilities to the point where the fight is completely unwinnable. If you're going to make it impossible, you might as well not even bother with a template.
 

dave2008

Legend
Here's the thing. I agree with your argument that a God or Avatar should be hard, but that does not justify the defense of broken abilities to the point where the fight is completely unwinnable. If you're going to make it impossible, you might as well not even bother with a template.

I god or avatar can be an unwinnable and not have broken abilities. Just because you give it stats doesn't mean it has to be beatable by PCs. I can only assume your are talking conceptually here, because this avatar is not an unwinnable fight. I haven't personally checked the math or balance, but I don't see anything on quick glance with this avatar that is broken or unwinnable. In fact, I am pretty sure a lvl 20 party would wipe him out pretty quickly.
 

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