Energy Substitution - Force

[Savage Wombat]

Which do you think is more balanced:

1) A metamagic feat that lets you convert damage from an energy spell into Force damage for one extra casting level; or

2) A metamagic feat that lets you convert damage from an energy spell into Force damage, but that uses dice one step smaller than the original - for example, a Force-ball would do 1d4/caster level.

 

[the Jester]

Force damage is great. I'd give it a two-level increase and keep the damage the same.

 

[Draugin]

1) A metamagic feat that lets you convert damage from an energy spell into Force damage for one extra casting level;

Metamagic feats usually increase spell levels without touching other aspects of the spell, so I feel it's more orthodox your first proposal.

+1 spell level maybe it's not enough.
+2 it's better, as the jester suggested. So you could prepare an empowered fireball that deals more damage but can easily be resisted with many means, or a forceball that deals force damage that you cannot resist, even if you are incorporeal. I think it's balanced.

BTW, you shouldn't try to compare to Tome & Blood's Energy Substitution (Sonic), it's obviously broken.

 

[green slime]

Who isn't going to take this feat?

I feel the advantage of [force] effects is so great, that there is no reason to not take this feat, ever.

A 5th level spell that deals 9-10d6 force damage vs Reflex save over a large area, still seems too good to me.

incorporeal and ethereal monsters are so common at higher levels, yet this just blows most them away.

 

[Draugin]

Who isn't going to take this feat?
I feel the advantage of [force] effects is so great, that there is no reason to not take this feat, ever.
A 5th level spell that deals 9-10d6 force damage vs Reflex save over a large area, still seems too good to me.
incorporeal and ethereal monsters are so common at higher levels, yet this just blows most them away.

In MM II there are listed 6 incorporeal monsters. In don't know how many they are on MM, but I don't think so many more.
So, it's undoubtly useful, but IMO it wouldn't become a "must have", only a "could have" (a little better than most metamagics which no one could care about).
However, it heavily depends on your campaign experience (I encountered some incorporeal beings, but not so many).

 

[BenjaminB]

Perhaps an energy type which ONLY hits incorporeal or etherial creatures would be better... ectoplasm? ghostfire? I don't know. But I don't think it would be a bad mod for energy substitution.

-B

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I would put both Energy Substitution and Admixture, (Force), at +2 levels. For Substitution only, you might get away with a +1 and dumping it to d4's. Of course, if you're not playing FR, and want a reasonable level of power, doing both d4's and +2 levels would not be "nerfing" the Feats at all.

 

[Corlon]

that's what's cool about the force wielder guy PRC from path of magic, he didn't look so broken, but with all the talk about force, I dunno.

 

[green slime]

In MM II there are listed 6 incorporeal monsters. In don't know how many they are on MM, but I don't think so many more.

I was intrigued by this statement, so i had to go and look for myself

Given that the frequency of any type of monster or NPC with a class is determined by the DM, you can never count on actually having use for your [Force] spell.

But, nevertheless here is the list of creatures I found in the WotC monster books, that are

Incorporeal
Allip, MM
Shadow, MM
Spectre, MM
Ghost, MM
Banshee, MMII
Crimson Death, MMII
Effigy, MMII
Glimmerskin, MMII
Jahi, MMII
Spirit of the Land, MMII
Bhut, FF
Ethereal Ooze, FF
Spectral Lurker, FF
Symbiont (Ghostly Visage), FF
Thunder Worm, FF
Ecalypse, MotP
Energon, Xag-ya, MotP
Energon, Xeg-yi, MotP
Caller in the Darkness, PsiHB
Shadow Demon, BoVD
Phane, BoVD

But, the list of possible targets does not end there! We also have a list of Creatures that either dwell on the Ethereal, or can travel their through various means (plane shift, or ethereal jaunt)
Coutl, MM (Plane Shift)
Succubi, MM (Ethereal Jaunt)
Bebelith, MM (Plane Shift)
Pit Fiend, MM (Wish)
Old Dragons, MM (+/- one age category, using Cleric spells (5th+), or Wizard spells (7th+)
Ethereal Filcher, MM (Ethereal Jaunt)
Ethereal Marauder, MM (Ethereal Jaunt)
Mind Flayer (Plane Shift)
Phase Spider, MM ??
Titan, MM (Etherealness)
Monadic Deva, FF (sorry, I tired of listing HOW...)
Movanic Deva, FF
Ethergaunts, Black, FF
Ethergaunts, Red, FF
Ethergaunts, White, FF
Quarut, FF (Plane Shift)
All Gem Dragons, MMII
Ether Scarab, MMII
Ethereal Doppelganger, MMII
Ethereal Slayer, MMII
Famine Spirit, MMII
Linnorm, Gray, MMII
Linnorm Dread, MMII
Linnorm Corpse Tearer, MMII
Spell Weaver, MMII
Mercane, MotP
Inevitable, Marut, MotP
Thought Eater, PsiHB
Anaxim, ELH
Atropal, ELH
Epic Dragons, ELH
Ha-naga, ELH
Hoary Steed, ELH
Neh-Thalggu, ELH
Shadow of the Void, ELH
Shape of Fire, ELH
Slaad, Black, ELH
Slaad, White, ELH
Titan, Eldar, ELH
Umbral Blot, ELH
Uvuudaum, ELH

 

[KingOfChaos]

A good way of making a feat balanced that no one in their right mind would not want to take is to raise the requirements for it. Blindsight 5ft. Radius comes to mind. I read it and thought "Damn, I want that!" then I read the prerequisites and saw that Wis 19+ and knew it would be a while before my monk ever touched that bad boy.

I think adding Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture as prerequisites for this force spell feat would be a good start to balancing it.