Epic level casters versus fighters

[BlindKobold]

You can always WISH for a spell slot or for another known spell. Burns xp... but if you are fighting epic level critters, it shouldn't be too bad.

Of course... wizards can do the same thing.

Another thing to consider is once you hit epic as a sorcerer, switch to guildmage with Arcane Preparation. This would give the sorcerer more flexibility in what they can cast.

This isn't 1st or 2nd edition, where there were major benefits to sticking with one class. In 3rd edition, it can definately pay off to take prestige or a level or so of another class... which in my opinion is closer to real life... personally being a computer programmer 5/martial artist 4/gamer 4/artist 3/nerd 5 (Nerd IS a prestige class!)

 

[Death]

Well...
I have thought about prestige classes, but that is not it. If I had a choice I would probably go for Guild wizard of Waterdeep, which gives 3 extra spells per level to arcane caster, but it is still hard for sorcerer to fill prereq. Wizards get A LOT of skill points, because their primary stat is INT, which ads to skill point and it is really easy for a average wizard to put knowledge arcana, spellcraft and concentration to max, sorcerers have CHA for primary statistic, which is in many campaigns kind of overlooked and you get 2+int mod. skill points. Sometimes you have to sacrifice all skill points just to qualify for a prestige class, not to mention epic spell creation, where you need lots of knowledge and spellcraft. Average sorcerer has INT about 10-12 - that means 2-3 skill points per level. Beside of that, prestige classes are quite DM dependable - your DM has to put them in his campaign, or he has to allow them, which is quite a high risk.
I know, that I can simply wish a new spell, but for that, sorcerer has to take wish spell, which becomes one of the three 9 th level spells which the sorcerer gets till level 20. After that you have approximately 4 wishes for 4 spells for 1 level of advancement, which further cripples sorcerer compared to wizard. Because of that sorcerer is one level lower than wizard...
I still think, that PHB Wizard is a bit stronger than Sorcerer, but it is still balanced, but in ELH the ballance falls appart. Wizard gets spells with level, sorcerer doesnt, skills start to really count, when you want to develope new epic level spells and sorcerers are crippled again... In my opinion ELH was completly undertested!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Incorrect, the wizard is not even limited by the number of spells in existance: He can research new spells, and at epic levels is very likely to spend some of his large wads of cash doing so Researching non-Epic spells.

Well, it won't spread the gap to much.

The wizard CAN cast spells spontaneously; either through Innate Spell (FRCS, T&B) or Signature Spell (FRCS). Either way it costs feats.

Innate spell is for both classes, and not exactly the same: the spell becomes a spell-like ability for you.

Signature Spell only affects a single spell per taking. Not overly powerful

BUT I have seen a question to one of the designers on this board, or WotC board concerning Specialists: the answer being: Oops. of course they should get their bonus spell. I believe it was SKR, but I couldn't garantee that.

Hm...

I did no such thing as DEMAND.

Please don't be pedantic. Of course you didn't take hostages or something. You said that you're not satisfied with the way things are, and I inferred that you'd like to see them made better.

I stated what I see as a "fact" (it is a class ability after all): that specialists gain a spell slot of every spell level that they can cast. I then use this "fact" to point out how the sorcerer got shafted. If you interpret the rules some other way, more power to you.

Writing a rules supplement, should one not be specific in saying, that the sole advantage a Specialist had for 20 levels, is no longer valid? Does this mean my 21st level specialist can cast spells of the forbidden schools, provided they are metamagicked above 9th level? (Of course not, he can't learn them...)

he still has the bonus to spellcraft.

Can he cast epic spells that are based on spells of a forbidden school? IMC, that isn't going to happen.

So you don't shaft the sorcerer, you shaft the specialist...

The dilemma is not easily solved;

On that, you're right. Either you shaft the specialist wizard (and the cleric, with his domains) because he won't get a bonus slot. Or you shaft the sorcerer, because it's his "class skill" (anyway, the tables say so) to have more spell slots than the wizard. To really balance that, you'd have to give more than one spell slot per feat, and that would make the feat to powerful compared against other spells. Or you let one class get the shaft.

but that is why I pay MONEY to a company that hypes its product as solving those kind of issues, only to find it hasn't been proof-read.

Like I said, that's a real complicated issue, and I think that the way things are the stuff is fairly balanced.

Is it possible that Szass Tam is NOT regarded as an Epic Level Specialist? Because he dabbles as an Archmage and other PrC? In other words, he hasn't reached 21st level as a specialist.

Both Archmage and Red Mage improve your spellcasting ability as if you gained a level in your former class. A 12th-level specialist wizard who gets one level as Red Wizard will have the spellcasting ability of a 13th-level specialist wizard, including 2 7th-level slots (one for his school). So he's practically a 21st-level specialist when he's specialist 12/ Red Wizard 9.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You can always WISH for a spell slot or for another known spell. Burns xp... but if you are fighting epic level critters, it shouldn't be too bad.

Don't know whether that's possible. It may be to strong for a wish. Replacing spells seems to be alright, but if it were possible to get additional spells, the Simbul would probably know dozens of spells in addition to her current list.

 

[Oni]

Ah, okay. We agree, then.

What do you think of the spell mimic idea?

It is a tad open ended, and it begs some questions, like now that he knows it, does it become something he can do on a regular basis, how many of these can he know et c, et c.


Personally i had something in mind like maybe a continous detect magic, or perhaps something similar to the spell secret ability (I think that is what it is called) of the wu-jen. But perhaps these are too powerful. As I said before mechanically I believe the sorcerer to be balanced, I just think that there should be something more for them to give up when taking a PrC, as it stands most PrC's if they can qualify for them are better for the sorcerer, than staying the course. I don't think PrC's should over shadow the main classes, but rather take them in new directions, choosing between a PrC and sticking with your class should be a hard choice from a mechanical point of view, but sadly it doesn't always seem to be.

 

[Oni]

Double Post!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It was just a draft, it has to be fleshed out. I think the spells would last for a day and then go away. They have to see the spell in action and make checks to remember it right. They could only completely copy the spell: if they see someeone cast a fire shield that protects against cold, they can't use that to cast the fire version. If the spell is changed with metamagic, they must use (and probably have) the metamagic in question. The casting time would be increased (like a metamagic'ed spell). They could only add X spells to their arsenal (the exact amount has to be determined and tweaked. Maybe even as few as 1). And they would cast the spell less efficiently than the original caster: either their caster level would be reduced (a sor12 casting them as sor9 or something), the effective spell level would be raised (by 1), or the save DC would be lessened (by 2). Or a combination of several/all of these things.
Of course, they can't copy spells that aren't on their list, and they have to copy them from other arcane spellcasters (since divine magic works works very different).