Epic level casters versus fighters

[Death]

I have got ELH a bit late. I was anxious to read about sorcerer epic level advancement, and then I have read about it...



The only thing he gets is one epic feat every three levels??? If I compare that to fighter types, they get a lot of abilities (monk, barbarian) or Feats (fighter), but sorcerer doesn't get anything! Wizard learns two new spells every level with possible epic level spells, if he can cast them... He just has to take another higher level slot with every feat. Cleric also doesn't learn new spells and the same is with psi warrior... Psionic at least gets power points. Bard doesn't get anything special. Do you find it fair? In my opinion sorcerer should be able to cast higher level spells in time , but now he has to take new spell slot for one feat, and then learn two spells for another feat, while wizard meanwhile learns 12 spells (instantly) and uses two feats for higher spell slots and now he can cast 10 spells more than sorcerer and he can also cast spells one spell level higher...
What do you think?

 

[Thanee]

I think the Sorcerer's spells known progression should increase either with level or with each and every Improved Spell Capacity feat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

EL Sorcerers got the shaft.

But then the ELH wasn't too well thought out, in many areas, IMO.

BTW; your gripe should compare spellcasters to other spellcasters, rather than fighter types to spellcasters. The rate at which the non-spell casters gain feats cannot really be a fari measuring stick to gauge the power of the spelluser.

But it is easy to see, that compared to an equivalent level Epic wizard, that the Epic sorcerer is shafted.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The Sorcerer's caster level improves beyond 20th. He won't get additional spells per day or spells known, but the wizard doesn't either.

 

[AuraSeer]

Yah, I was disappointed too. There's not much reason to take a single-class sorcerer above level 20. On the up side, once you max out in nonepic levels, you no longer need to sacrifice spell progression if you want to take the Dragon Disciple PrC.

 

[Johno]

The Sorcerer's caster level improves beyond 20th. He won't get additional spells per day or spells known, but the wizard doesn't either.

But the Wizard is per default allowed to learn ALL the spells available in the campaign, which the Sorcerer can only emulate by burning feats, allowing him (the sorcerer) to learn two new spells.

Compare that to the wizards ability to take Improved Spellcasting to get access to a higher level spell slot, EVERY TIME the sorcerer tries to learn a few new spells.

Add in the fact that when a sorcerer takes the feat Improved Spellcasting, (s)he gains 1 spell slot, +1 if Charisma is high enough.

The wizard gains the same amount of slots, (relevant Stats being equal in value)... UNLESS he happens to be a specialist as well; in which case he gains a further spell slot.

This all adds up. In the end, the sorcerer's flexibility will be completely consumed by the extraodinary repetoire of the equally high level Specialist Wizard.

I predict very few players will be choosing to play Epic Level Sorcerers...

 

[James McMurray]

I plan on it. And I bet others will as well. You see, there are more thins to consider in making a character than numbers. There aren't any prestige classes out there that match my goals and outlook for my sorcerer. Maybe one of the epic ones from Dragon magazine, but they don't get bonus feats, so maybe not. In any case, Dragon Disciple certainly isn't in his future, nor are any of the other prestige classes touted as being so great for a sorcerer.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

But the Wizard is per default allowed to learn ALL the spells available in the campaign, which the Sorcerer can only emulate by burning feats, allowing him (the sorcerer) to learn two new spells.

Compare that to the wizards ability to take Improved Spellcasting to get access to a higher level spell slot, EVERY TIME the sorcerer tries to learn a few new spells.

Add in the fact that when a sorcerer takes the feat Improved Spellcasting, (s)he gains 1 spell slot, +1 if Charisma is high enough.

The wizard gains the same amount of slots, (relevant Stats being equal in value)... UNLESS he happens to be a specialist as well; in which case he gains a further spell slot.

This all adds up. In the end, the sorcerer's flexibility will be completely consumed by the extraodinary repetoire of the equally high level Specialist Wizard.

I predict very few players will be choosing to play Epic Level Sorcerers...

Well, the number of spells known for a sorcerer 20 is the same as the number of spells known for a sorcerer 120 without feats. But the number of spells known for a wizard 20 is the same as the number of spells known for a wizard 120, too (except the ones he learns from scrolls). And the sorcerer can well survive with the spells he has by then.

And you're wrong: the improved spell capacity feat grants you one spell slot, plus others from high ability scores. It doesn't grant you a specialist spell slot.
Look at Szass Tam's Wizard Spells per day column on P298, ELH: he only gets 1 spell of 10th and 11th levels.

 

[Marshall]

The Sorcerer's caster level improves beyond 20th. He won't get additional spells per day or spells known, but the wizard doesn't either.

Unless something has changed a WIZ still learns 2 new spells every level.

 

[Johno]

Well, the number of spells known for a sorcerer 20 is the same as the number of spells known for a sorcerer 120 without feats. But the number of spells known for a wizard 20 is the same as the number of spells known for a wizard 120, too (except the ones he learns from scrolls). And the sorcerer can well survive with the spells he has by then.

Incorrect: the wizard learns two new spells every level. And you think the wizard will not encounter any scrolls with unknown spells in 100 levels of adventuring?

And you're wrong: the improved spell capacity feat grants you one spell slot, plus others from high ability scores. It doesn't grant you a specialist spell slot.
Look at Szass Tam's Wizard Spells per day column on P298, ELH: he only gets 1 spell of 10th and 11th levels.

I'll grant you that no mention is made of specialists. Obviously an oversight. One of many. Come on now, the book is riddled with errors, oversights, and miscalculations. One wonders if those people involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences.